Suns 123, Warriors 115: Yes, I’m more convinced than ever that the Shaq Suns are in trouble
I’ll try to make this quick, as usual, since I wasn’t there and there will be no Q&A’s, as you know.
* The Shaq Meter: -1, despite the Phoenix victory.
Oh sorry, that’s not my thing on the blog. It’d be fun to start a New Meter up, anyway, but it’s not to be since I don’t see every Suns game and I’ve long since tired of game-by-game analysis of slow old players on fast good teams.
But Shaq’s play, his dragging effect on his Suns teammates and his coach’s ultra-defensive tone about him really does remind me of the way the Warriors were dealing with Chris Webber a while ago.
Tonight, as Amare Stoudemire, Boris Diaw (!), Steve Nash and others were whizzing up and down the floor against the tired Warriors, Shaq got in sluggish foul trouble, played only 14 minutes, made three baskets, scored 9 points with 4 rebounds and was a mysterious +9 in the plus/minus.
(Hmm, sounds like a lot of that might’ve been accumulated during the infuriating first 4 or 5 minutes of Phoenix-GSW, while TNT was happily showing us the end of Clev-Wash. I know it’s in the contract and all that, but there is no part of any Eastern conference game that is worth losing one second of a GSW-Phoenix game. EVER.)
Obviously Shaq can’t play against a fast team like the Warriors. He’s not so good against sorta-fast teams or medium-fast teams or good young teams. He’s only been good against one team–old slow good San Antonio.
Shaq had Al Harrington guarding him. And then Austin Croshere and a little Andris Biedrins. One on one. No double-teaming. Shaq should’ve dominated that. Old Fat Shaq still should’ve dominated. He didn’t. He threw his elbows, cried, and got pulled.
Then the Suns played better. Funny how Mike D’Antoni bristled when asked if Shaq would come back in during the fourth quarter despite his five fouls. OF COURSE! D’Antoni said.
Oops. No more Shaq. ‘Cause Phoenix actually had to win the game.
* Phoenix is in trouble, I don’t care that the Suns won tonight.
They had a huge advantage in this game–the Warriors were on the road side of a home/road back-to-back and played like it in the second half.
The Suns are trying to turn into a slow set team just to please Shaq, but he’s not good enough any more to justify a slow pace. The Suns have to run to win. And without Shawn Marion, as I think I’ve said previously, the Suns are a far lesser running team than they were.
They’ll probably make the playoffs. But they’re not as good as they used to be. And if they force Shaq heavy minutes, they’re far worse.
Kevin Harlan’s an excellent announcer, but enough with the Suns proving how great they are and gaining redemption because they beat San Antonio slow and then the Warriors fast.
Two games. Calm down. This is the NBA. Two games.
* Yes: It was a BACK TO BACK for the Warriors. That’s quite meaningful in the NBA.
The Warriors probably lost their best shot at this one–despite Baron Davis’ incredible game (he does love playing the Suns)–last night, when Don Nelson had to run his Big Three for deep second-half minutes at home against Toronto.
Oh well–that’s what the Warriors deserve for not being able to put away the Raptors without Chris Bosh. Again: This is the NBA.
If the Warriors had won this one tonight, they’d be tracking to 51, 52 victories, which is a mind-blower for me, since I just don’t see them as a 50-win team but I might have to adjust at some point.
They can still get to 50. This one wasn’t going to prevent that–though a victory would’ve almost guaranteed it.
* BACK TO BACK: Uh, at some point, it might behoove Nelson to play his bench during a BTB, either on the front part, the back part, or–fantasy land!–both parts… but Don is not going to do that quite yet.
I understand why he’s wary of Matt Barnes. He just can’t make a shot any more.
I get his spot play of Austin Croshere. You usually know right away if he’s got it or not.
I’ve told Don that he has been more patient than I would’ve predicted with Mickael Pietrus, and now that is bearing fruit, with Pietrus mostly in the starting line-up these days as a big contributor.
Pietrus is suddenly doing a Pippen thing–guarding the tough point guards to give Baron and Monta easier defensive match-ups. That’s huge… and it works because Baron’s so strong he can guard just about anybody–well, anybody who doesn’t move very quickly.
But the bench is there. The Warriors have some talented guys sitting a lot. At some point, they should be used.
Because Nelson is killing Baron, Monta and Jackson–for understandable purposes, but he’s killing them.
* BACK TO BACK! Heck, Monta Ellis played like he was mentally drained from the second quarter on…. though Raja Bell’s defense was a gigantic factor, too, I’m sure. That was Utah-style defense on Monta–and it was Utah-style Monta, sort of frozen at times, and then manic and jumping in the air with nowhere to go at other times.
8 for 22 from the field is Ellis’ worst shooting performance in this calendar year, so I’ll cut him a break.
But good Western teams aren’t the same as bad East teams. They have actual defensive gameplans and talented players and all the fancy stuff. They’ve seen Hot Monta a few times. They won’t always let him do the stuff he likes. They get a body into him and push him further and further from where he wants to be.
Let’s see how he adjusts and fights throught it.
* Baron was tremendous. I should say that again. He brought it like this was a playoff game. Why is he still the Man and Monta isn’t? Tonight is why.
* Stephen Jackson was not tremendous–worst plus/minus of the team (-18), and like Ellis’ shooting, that hasn’t happened in a while, though I did admire Jackson’s attempt at muscling Stoudemire on the low post, and when that work, his outright hackery. That’s what he had to do and he did it.
With that banged up foot of his, which looked like it got banged up again tonight, I wonder how consistently SJax can perform in the attrition trench warfare of the Western Conference playoffs.
As you know, without SJax at top form, the Warriors are a very different and much weaker ballclub.
* Yes, I would’ve tossed Brandan Wright out there in the third quarter just to see if he could bug Stoudemire. I mean, he couldn’t have done worse than what was happening.
Might have been awful. Really might’ve. But I think Wright deserves looks like that–because he’s going to have to wrestle with the Big Guys at some point, now or later, might as well be now.
* Hey, that Chris Webber sure looked great! Webber Meter: N/A… probably ever again.
wow i was actually to write a compliment on a good post
until your last sentence, wtf… another cheap shot to an injured warrior player whose career is likely to be over…?
you got issues.
Another TK blog bashing veteran big men lol. Did Shaq and Webber refuse to talk to you or something? You mad at them Timmy? This meter crap is getting old fast.
Agree on almost all counts..The team looked a step slow in the 2nd half..
Worst shooting game for Ellis–he got hit all night long, and not a lot of calls.
Should have put in Wright to try to slow down Stoudemire.
Nelson has once again buried Wright on the bench….I think Nelson has some kind of mental problem when it comes to big men…maybe it’s the size of their shoes.
Pietrus still makes some stupid plays…but is playing better.
Webber was seen at a local bank cashing another big check and laughing.
Nelson was seen at the same bank telling them he’ll need a bigger safe deposit box real soon.
gswfan4ever, like Tim Kawakami needs your approval to validate his blog entry? Get real!
A great analysis considering you weren’t even at the game Tim. Shaq looked terrible and I thought it was funny when D’Antoni said he’d put in Shaq…The back to back game was tough on our Warriors especially when Phoenix decided to push the tempo. I thought we lost the game because we had no answer to Amare. He seemed to get every offensive rebound and all his shots were within 5 ft of the bucket. Although I love watching our team get up and down the floor at a breakneck pace, I fear our downfall in the playoffs will be stopping the Amares and Carlos Boozers of the world. Overall, a great entry Tim! ;}
xx
Hey Tim/Jodie - you failed to mention the funniest part of the Phoenix game…
How about the scene where Nellie ordered hack-a-Shaq in the first half (I think it was Croshere who entered the game for some fouling) and Shaq went two-for-two on those ugly, flat, no-arch free throws. As Shaq ran upcourt, he excitedly pointed 4 fingers and ran upcourt trying to intimidate Nellie (or something like that)!!! Shaq had the competitive fire in his belly not seen in several years!
On Barnes:
I miss the old Matt Barnes… Where did his confidence go? Where’s his reckless abandon? Barnes is playing kinda like Pietris early this season or Monta/Harrington in last years’ playoffs - tight and afraid… Barnes has never been much of a finisher (think anti-Monta) around the rim (learn a pump fake, please) but where’s his sweet 3-point shot? Maybe the NBA was right in saying he’s a Nellie system guy in not paying him last offseason…
C’mon Nellie - play Wright a little bit, ok? - Does anyone think that Wright would have done much WORSE than the Warrior bigs did against Diaw and Stoudemire in the 3rd and 4th quarter??? Please. 10 minutes for Brandon when the matchups are “wright” would give us a peek at our future - that’s all I ask. 10 minutes ain’t gonna lose the game or the playoffs. Wright has actually played well and contributed in short stints. It isn’t like Warrior bigs Andris or Croshere or Harrington are tearing the cover off the ball.
Wow Tim. I Thought the Same Thing on the Cleveland Cavaliers game. I promise you that as a I was busy pacing up and down the sports bar trying to vent my anger away at the fact that TNT and ESPN are enamored with anything Lebron… and they seem to think that So is all of the American Public…that the CLeveland Cavaliers game was going to go into Overtime..
I didn’t even read your article Tim, but I can already tell you are so stubborn that you still think the Suns/Shaq trade is bad.
I got news for you - you watch your Warriors, if they make it to the playoffs, and make sure they get someone like Shaq to defend the paint next year.
OK I admit - i just want to see what someone writes WHEN THEY’RE SO OBVIOUSLY IN THE WRONG.
Shaq was brought in so teams like the Warriors CAN’T GO INSIDE AND POST UP THEIR GUARDS IN THE PAINT. Shaq altered the Warriors offense CONSIDERABLY considering they were settling for jumpers every time Shaq was in.
And you, Tim, are so bold to say the Shaq trade was a bad move? HAHAHAHAHAH YOU’RE LOOKING LIKE AN IDIOT MORE AND MORE EVERYDAY. GET OFF THIS STANCE AND ADMIT YOU’RE WRONG. The Suns don’t beat the Spurs without Shaq, and the Suns don’t alter the W’s offense without him, either.
What’s next? The Suns rip off another 10 game winning streak and you’ll keep saying the Suns are in trouble because they traded for Shaq? Good thing Denver is constant bunch of underachievers, or the W’s would lose out on the 8th seed this year.
PeteyB,
I completely agree about Barnes. His confidence is gone and his shot is off, but I’m always going to give him a pass this season just for the fact that losing your mother must be hard to cope with. I know it’s been several months, but it’s hard to gauge how long a person will need to adjust for something that tragic.
I agree…..Nelly should’ve played Wright last night. It just doesn’t make sense when Diaw and Stoudemire were dominating inside. I don’t understand why Buike was playing instead of Wright. Wright and Biedrins would’ve bothered all those easy shots by phoenix. Then again freakin..Raja Bell was hot and Nash got hot on the 2nd half because they didn’t make him pay on the defensive end.
I heard on ESPN Radio that the Niners got Bryant Johnson (WR Arizona). Tim, can you confirm!?!?!?
“Shaq had the competitive fire in his belly not seen in several years!”
Well that $20 mil/yr fat (for a pro baller) belly of his can’t justify staying on the court against most teams right now. Whether hack a Shaq worked in this instance is not relevant overall; it works most of the time, because the Big Unconditioner is a lousy free throw shooter (one reason he has often come out of games during crunch game throughout his career); you can bet on it. PHX had one big quarter against a more tired team, otherwise they lose this game too. Not afraid of this team anymore, and nobody else is either. Remember Shaq was a first round reject in the East last season.
Todd - confirmed they signed Bryant Johnson to a one year deal. Now we have a bunch of possession receivers on our team without a number one guy. Maybe Jason Hill can be that guy?
first off thanks tim for your work….i actually think having shaq go to the bench help pho go back to their old successful ways. I do agree with you that B wright and croshere should have been give a chance to guard amarie. the game was closer than the final indicates.
I have also noticed whenever monta is beyond the 3pt line the defenders know he isn’t gonna shoot it, so they back off. he needs to work on extending his shoot range to just be a threat.
finally the game never over if the warriors have a lead since their defense is so poor. the toronto game is a perfect example. no player is afraid to drive the lane on the warriors. we have no defender that defends the goal nor anyone that will knock you on your ass to give a hard foul.
ps barkley is still giving no love for the warriors. how can a team win 50 games a be terrible. comparing our team to street ball and AND1.
Wow, Tim Kawakame, bitter much? The Suns got JOBBED by the refs last night and still got it done–at the high-octane “Warriors do it better” run-n-gun style. And anyone who thinks Shaq did not have a major impact in his limited minutes last night wasn’t really watching. Great call by D’Antoni to leave the Big Cactus in there with his 4th foul–that was the stretch that erased the Warrior lead and set the stage for the Suns to blow it open by running the ball down the Warriors throats. I don’t care that you don’t care if the Suns won–scoreboard, brother–Suns win, Warriors lose, and the message has been sent–the Suns got more versatile, not less, with the Shaq trade.
Hey timmy,
With the 9ers signing of Bryant Johnson are you going to write about how Scott mcGlaughlin can’t stand up to nolan and make his own decisions? Of course I’m referencing you critical comments, mere months after Scott was promoted and before he had a change to make single off season move, that went something like -”Scott hasn’t shown the ability or willingness to stand up to Nolan and make his own moves.” I love you man but sometimes your takes are laughable.
Shaq actually did a decent job using his size against Harrington (9 points in 14 minutes) and would have continued to be a problem for the Warriors if the refs hadn’t made some very questionable calls against him–he also kept GS out of the lane which helped in a game where the warriors shot horribly from the field. And lets note that the Warriors are a pretty unique team in the West now playing small and without much defense and because of that probably won’t make it past the first round this year–
Shaq played efficiently (9 point in 14 minutes) and would have continued to be a problem for the Warriors if the refs hadn’t benched him–and it’s pretty obvious he didn’t play much of the 4th because the Warriors would have hacked him
Whine whine whine. The Warriors got beaten by a thoroughly superior team. Despite a TON of help from the men in pinstripes in the first half the Warriors couldn’t manage more than a 4 point lead. The Suns proved last night that they are becoming an extememely dangerous hybrid, capable of winning against a bunch of little guys that jack it up from all over (to quote CB) - as well as against a terrific half-court team. They do not need to run to win. Two of Shaq’s fouls were ticky tack ridiculous calls, and had he been permitted to play basketball your stupid editorial would never have never seen the light of day.
PLAY BRANDON WRIGHT!!!!
1. “He’s only been good against one team–old slow good San Antonio.” Um, so he’s only good against teams like the defending champs?
2. … “he’s not good enough any more to justify a slow pace. The Suns have to run to win.” Um, seems to me they just beat the defending champs in a bare-knuckled low-scoring game. Then came back the next game and ran the highest scoring team in the Association right out of the gym.
TK, whoever you are, please keep your so-called analysis to bashing your exciting but incapable-of succeding-in-the-playoffs team.
So, Phoenix finally beat Golden State. The Warriors weren’t going to sweep the season series…
I think the most important of the remaining games are the Nuggets games. If Denver figures out a way to win both, we’re right back to being in trouble again. These are the two games that worry me the most.
When all is said and done, though, I’m not sure anyone’s getting past the Rockets. 20 in a row. And it’s not a fluke.
“Kevin Harlan’s an excellent announcer.”
I can’t believe you wrote that. The guy says something stupid almost every minute.
Jerry Rice has just said that Bryant Johnson can wear #80!
boo hoo, poor webber, poor shaq. let’s all pretend they’re still really good and can still contribute to a championship squad. webber was a stupid pick up and you should mention it as often as possible. Shaq was an even dumber pick-up, at least gs got webber for nothing.
anyone who writes stories about these two teams for the rest of the season should mention it in every article. especially shaq, you make a move that stupid you should be reminded of it every day.
Funny stuff, Timmy. In reality, I think the team players fear the least is the Warriors. They know they’ll get shots, especially inside like they used to do with the Suns - they just have to make sure they go in. Baron Davis hoisting and hitting incredible 27-foot three-pointers and sloppy play by the Suns in the first half were the only things that kept Golden State in the game at all. No inside presence to stop the bigs of the West means no advancing. Shaq was brought in to oppose the real contenders like SA and the Lakers, not Golden State. The rest of the Suns can handle them just fine.
Wow, seems like a lot of chippy Suns fans posting today. The Suns were just a Robert Horry-cheap shot away from maybe going all the way to the NBA Finals last year so why ruin that by giving up Marion for Shaq? As much as I love the big fella’ he’s not a good fit for the Suns. The only way Phoenix or anyone gets by the Spurs is if San Antonio gets tired (entirely possible) or if the opposing team is the Lakers with a healthy Andrew Bynum. Think Shaq will have enough gas to stop a healthy Andrew Bynum? I don’t think so.
I will agree with the Sun’s posters on one point: just like the early 90s Nelly and the Warriors will hit the playoff wall again without an imposing, athletic big man who can play the half-court game and counter the Amares and Boozers of this world. Did you see Brandan standing next to Shaq? He looked absolutely puny. Do you think BW could have slowed down the Stoudamire dunkfest? Get real. Unless he’s wiry strong like SJack he will not be ready for any playoff action until he hits that training table. I’d rather see Nelson try to squeeze one last ounce of ball out of CWebb…
Is anyone else noticing Ellis starting to drift on his jump shot? I think Geoff Lepper mentioned it about the Suns game in his article today. I noticed him do that a few times in the Orlando game as well and it’s definitely a new thing. It’s really affected/ing his shot. Makes you wonder if it’s a fatigue indicator…
Great pick up on Ellis starting to drift on his jump shot. I noticed him do that a few times in the Orlando game and it’s definitely a new element (not a good one). It’s really affected/ing his shot. Makes you wonder if it’s a fatigue indicator…
Commish-
Nellie IS a straight shooter. Ask his players. He tells them straight up what they need to hear. Now when he gets in front of the Media, that’s when he’ll take artistic license. I’d much rather a coach that’s honest with his players and lies out his hinny to the media than a guy like Larry Brown or Pitino that says whatever it takes in the short haul to his players and then “Tells it like it is” to the media and undercuts his players.
Yes, Nellie has called out his players in the media as well but when the media get to them, instead of being shocked or offended like with other coaches, they invariably say, “That’s what Coach told me and he’s right.” Who the hell cares if the Coach is messing with his fans heads, as long as he has his players respect and makes the team better the song and dance is more than acceptable.
Ooops!, Wrong blog!
With mistakes like that I’ll never get gswfan4ever’s approval.
Seriously…what’s it going to take for Monta to stop soaring through the air like an idiot whenever someone pump-fakes from the perimeter? He does that at least twice a game. A defender should never…EVER…leave his feet when defending on the perimeter.
I think the Suns are in trouble too. The W’s had all the disadvantages going in. They played a tight game back to back and weren’t at home. Lost Jackson for almost the entire 4th quarter, outside of Baron no one played well and the W’s still almost won. The W’s played their “C” game and almost beat the Suns. That doesn’t bode well for the Suns with Shaq. Also, the W’s are going to pass all these old teams in the west next year. San Antonio, Suns, Dallas, are all on the way down. W’s, Lakers, Utah on the way up.
Rikdanger has the Suns’ strategy for Shaq right. That doesn’t mean it will work. But they know you can’t get out of the West in the playoffs without (at least some) muscle in the middle.
Suns could be improving their play with Shaq in the last few games. Tonight, spanking Sacramento and Suns at 100 pts in 3 qtrs. Shaq is playing 25+ min.
“The W’s played their “C” game and almost beat the Suns.”
If you W fans think that was the Suns “A” game you guys haven’t watched Phoenix enough.
Yea we Suns fans are chippy about the trade. We were ESPECIALLY tired of shortsighted columnists (*koff koff* like Tim Kawakami and ESPN’s John Hollinger*koff koff* for yelling OUT LOUD HOW BAD THE TRADE WAS WHEN IN REALITY IT WILL SAVE PHOENIX FROM ANOTHER EXIT AGAINST A BIG TEAM. And this was only after about 8 games.
BOTTOM LINE - the fact is - the Shaq trade was a good deal for Phoenix. They’re beating the W’s at their speed game, the Spurs at their half court game, and the Kings at no game.
I live in AZ (see, God hates me), I moved last season, so ya’ll can thank me for spurring the push that got us in and past Dallas.
I have to listen to Sunlovers explain to me why they are the 2nd best team in the west, why Amare is Apache Indian for “Lord Almighty,” and the sun rises and sets in Steve Nashs’ pants. Nash is starting to look like Clint Eastwood, Amare can’t rebound or play D, and Raja and my old boy Grant are good for like 12-14/night. Nash is done in a few more seasons, Barbosa can’t hold Monta’s jock. Why the hell did we let them win the other night? They can’t stay on the court.
Let Monta shoot 25 a night (that will make Baron, Al, and Stevo think before hoisting a 3rd straight 32ft 3 ptr.), and play Wright over Croshere.
Then we might get past the 2nd round.