The Webber Meter is retiring… and so is Webber
It was never going to work. Have I said that before? Chris Webber hasn’t been a good player for at least two years. Everything else said about him has been imaginary.
What did it cost the Warriors? A little bit of money–by the way, a good question to ask:
Is Webber getting paid for the last 12 games or is he walking away from that? (My guess: Some kind of partial settlement. He doesn’t want to be around, as he has demonstrated aptly by avoiding recent games, and the Warriors probably don’t want him around. So come to a middle ground that mostly favors C-Webb.)
It didn’t cost a player or huge money (other than being the worst 10-day contract in history that wasn’t a 10-day contract), but I will say:
It cost Brandan Wright 10 games of development time. That’s not a killer, but it’s a little sign of a franchise that went through a mental hiccup in late January and needed to calm down just a bit–AND PLAY BRANDAN WRIGHT.
Even if Webber was close to healthy, his grand return to the Warriors and Don Nelson’s arms was never, ever going to come close to working. Nice story, but nice stories don’t win games in March and April. Good players win games.
Wrong player, wrong time, wrong team.
Signing Webber was a sign of desperation, done on the cheap, and those sorts of moves are doomed for failure, especially when the team involved had no reason to be so desperate.
So at least the Warriors got out of it quickly–10 weird games (1 of which he didn’t play/coach’s decision), from Feb. 7-March 2, then a decompression period, and tomorrow, the official retirement, about three years after it should’ve come.
I think this move now is Chris Mullin’s call. I think he got together with Webber not too long ago and said: Your knee is telling you that you should retire and now I’m telling you that we have to move past this.
I think Mullin probably should’ve known that back in January, but Nellie was nervous and complaining and desperate for a big man, and Nellie loved the story of Webber coming back after the horrendous break up years ago.
Instead of giving up a young player for a mediocre big man, Mullin and Nelson compromised by getting a bad old big man for nothing but a minimum deal.
OK fine, but what if the Warriors miss the playoffs by 1 game?
Webber didn’t lose the Atlanta game by himself on Feb. 27 (Game 6 of the Webber Era), but he was awful. It was about the time we’d been told he’d be rounding into shape–almost a month after he signed–and he couldn’t move, couldn’t shoot and surely couldn’t defend anybody.
So he cost the Warriors a partial loss there, one of three Ls in his tenure.
And he sure didn’t provide much in any of the 7 victories during his span–maybe vs. Philly on Feb. 29 (Game 8), which was by far his best game. But I think the GSWs would’ve been just fine against the small 76ers without him, thank you very much.
Overall, Webber was a -21 on the plus/minus in 277 minutes for the Warriors. That’s not very good. (Wright is +31 this season.)
I will say that Webber generally seemed to be in good spirits and was cordial throughout–though he was almost always the last guy to the games and definitely the first guy out of the locker room after it was over.
He’s a smart guy. He probably knew this thing wasn’t going to work about four games into it. The knee thing accelerated it, but by then, the Warriors had to be figuring out an exit strategy, anyway.
I must say, I obviously had my doubts from the get-go, but when I saw him in one of his early practices, I thought–who could watch this guy limp and struggle to move four steps and think he can run in the NBA?
If you care, here’s how the Webber Meter went for the Ten Games of Return (I said from the start that if he gets to -10, this has to be shut down):
-Loss to Chicago: -1.
-Victory over Sacramento: -1.
-Victory over Washington: -1. (cumulative -3).
-DNP in victory over Phoenix: -1.
-Loss vs. Utah: 0.
-Victory over Boston: Controversial -1. I thought he was terrible, some people thought he played a rusty KG well. (Cumulative -4.)
-Loss to Atlanta: -1.
-Victory over Seattle: -1. (Cumulative -6.)
-Victory over Philadelphia: +1.
-Victory over Portland: 0.
Final Meter tally: -5.
–Nelson said he needed Webber to play the tough, big West teams, but the Warriors only faced one of them with Webber, losing big in Utah with Webber as a non-factor.
–It was bad desperation that drove this.
If you don’t think it was desperation, re-read Don Nelson’s lengthy argument for signing Webber back in January and tell me it doesn’t so have the scent of panic in it, now, looking back.
It’s over now. Let’s all move on. I feel kind of stupid for not pursuing the potential end of Webber more aggressively, but I did feel like I’d gotten on him enough.
He was a great player, but this year, he was done. Totally done. He was an imaginary player, and soon to be gone. It just wasn’t official. But it will be tomorrow.
The Warriors will play on, probably will make the playoffs, and it will be like Webber was never there.
That’s was always the best possible outcome for them.
Gee, what a shocker…Hey, anyone seen OakFoSho around?
Not that big a deal. He didn’t play enough to hurt or help the team.
Tim, I tend to agree with you on a lot of your Warriors analysis, however, I disagree with you on the risk/reward factor with Webber. I know you don’t know much about the Sharks, but there are a lot of similarities between Webber and Jeremy Roenick. Both players were great players in their primes who have have tough recent seasons and on the brink of retirement. Roenick was signed for the vet minimum and people in your shoes were saying the same exact things about him before the season (washed up, cancer in locker room, injury prone, taking PT away from youngsters, etc). Today, you can’t even make a remotely viable argument that the Roenick signing was a bad one and a lot of people were wrong on him.
I know, different sports and Webber never got the chance to prove doubters wrong like JR did, but I don’t think the Warriors lost out on much, if anything at all, and could have gained much more. In future hindsight, no one will remember this season for anything related to Webber, good or bad. Pure non-factor due to his lack of contribution, and definitely not a huge loss for the gamble.
Go Dubs, take us home!!!
what id brand have like 45 rebounds? Do the warriors think they can rely on Jax making 3’s every game. Its incredulous that mullins and find a boozer oor david lee. ( lower rd draft choices) When we go against strongs bigs monte and baron get nailed. when the amalls go against our bigs, we take a charge ( like bedreins did last night, right in the chops) This is getting old! I hate listening to that idiot from Philly saying he told us so.
Is it to late for 10 day contracts on Bigs? justine Williams anyone?
okay scratch Justin Williams.
Tim, you called it exactly from day one. Which begs the question, how could the Warriors brass be so clueless? Maybe if they read your posts they might get a clue on how to get a handle on their personnel.
Reno - the sign of TRUE desparation would be reading and following Tim K.’s “advice”
I signed Chris to bury the hatchet before I retired.
It had NOTHING to do with basketball, Tim.
Duh!
Chris on Fire - Had you seen Webber hobbling and limping around the court last season with Detroit, I think you would have been a skeptic from the beginning too.
Tim, I think all your points are valid but I think the timing is slightly inappropriate. The man was not an afterthought but a pretty good player during his NBA career, which is now over. Maybe you could have taken at least a day or two to stop ragging on him?
The interesting thing about Webber and his career is that he will always spark one of the great “what if” debates at both the college and professional levels. In college you wonder what would have happened had he not called that infamous timeout, or if he had stayed another year to play with Jalen Rose and Juwan Howard. For his time in the NBA we’ll all be left wondering what would have happened had he stayed in Oakland, what he could have been had he avoided the knee troubles, and what a dominant player he could have been if he had the mentality of a KG or Amare. Having seen the myriad skills Webber has on numerous occasions I believe that he could have, and probably should have, been one of the greatest players of all time. In his physical prime there was really nothing he couldn’t do and I’m not sure we’ll ever see another big man with his skill set. For whatever reason I’m not sure he ever wanted to be the once in a generation player his talent said he should have been.
So while there’s a lot to discuss and a lot to debate about CWebb I think you should have some respect for the fact that his good career is over. His career can only be described as a disappointment when you compare it to his supreme talent, and I would still rank him as one of the top 5 prospects of the past 20 years along with Shaq, Kidd, LeBron, and Duncan. On the day you retire would you want your colleagues bringing up your KG rumor mongering or the fact you were right all along about Mike Nolan and the Yorks?
Signing Chris Webber was a low risk deal. An act of desperation is trading the farm for Jason Kidd because you’re afraid of Baron Davis.
Isiah Thomas thought the C Webb signing was a bad idea…
If Isiah thought this was a bad deal it only because he couldn’t lock up c-webb for 5 yrs 30M$.
Zgreat - I was skeptical at the beginning also, definitely not thinking he was going to come save the world. My point is that it was worth the risk. That’s all. The classical low risk/high reward potential, and that those are typically seen as good moves whether you succeed or fail. Yes, he didn’t work out, but he didn’t work out for very, very little of Cohan’s money and a very, very small blip on B.Wright’s development radar. I’ll take that if that means we’re serious about making the playoffs this year.
Hey Tim,
You were right on with your Webber predictions! I thought you were way too tough, mean, and negative on the guy. But if you’re right, you’re right!
My feeling is that there was no major loss in seeing if Webber could still be serviceable… No draft picks and not a lot of money were wasted. I’ve seen over the hill guys - Kurt Thomas or “Karl Malone the Laker” types who seemed to help their teams in their old age.
It’s not like Pau Gasol was available for nothing and bad/expiring contracts… LOL! Also, if MulliNellie thought it was worth a try… they’ve been on fire (personnel wise) lately.
If Webber wasn’t signed, I don’t believe Nellie would have played B. Wright anyway… Do you??? We’ve seen enough of B. Wright to know the guy can play/contribute and needs a bigger role on the team. He’s the only half-arse shot blocker out there anyways. 10-20 minutes a game ain’t going to hurt the team as it’s not like the other Warriors bigs are tearing the cover of the ball… plus, he’s been productive when he’s been in. I have seen that BW gets in the way at times on offense - but his pluses seem to outweigh his minuses…
Sean,
I’m right here buddy, and Webber’s retirement changes nothing. First, if the Dubs miss the Playoffs by one game, the home game against the T-Wolves will be the game that everyone points to first, not C-Web as Tim would like you to think.
My argument for Webber, and against Tim, was a result of Tim’s bogus/worthless +/- meter. It was almost always negative, even when Webber had a few decent games and appeared to be coming around. Nelly also pointed this out, the fact that C-Web was coming around, but Tim would never rehash something that weakens his argument.
I have always said that C Webs impact would have been in the playoffs, and very little weight could be put on his regular season. I also said that if C-Web did not work out, as is the case, that it will have cost the Dubs nothing/zip/zilch/nada!
Tim would like you to think that C-Web was a terrible pick-up, and if the Dubz miss the playoffs, it’s C-Web’s, and by default, Nelly’s fault for bringing him in. Tim will then use this as reason to bash Nelly (I’m sure that article is coming soon!), and create funk where there is none. However, real Dubz fans that watch EVERY game, will realize that this is simply not the case.
Nelly was taking a chance on a guy that if healthy, as he was just beginning to prove before his injury, could help this team in the playoffs, in certain situations. He would have been a small piece of what hopefully would have been success against the big boys. Unfortunately, this is not the case, but the Warriors aren’t any worse for the ware.
Tim, I am glad that ONE, and only one, of your negative Warrior predictions has actually come true. I can tell you are excited to actually get something right, as you dedicate this entire post to patting yourself on the back. Very conceited by the way, and I’m sure your crap don’t stink either. Smells like roses ehh?
The bad news is, even a blind sports writer eventually pins the tail on the Donkey. Normally, Tim just gets kicked in the face for his Rumor Mongering, as 99 times out of 100 he is wrong, but today he gets the cake.
Not a good cake, but one of those fruit cakes that no one ever eats cause there terrible. To get a good cake you have to report something that more than half the sports writing community doesn’t also predict!
On the other hand, I should get a medal for defending C-Web amidst innumerable haters like Tim.
NEXT!
OakFoSho
Oak -
You didn’t disappoint! I wholeheartedly disagree with you, of course….
In order to be a factor in the playoffs, you have to be able to play in the regular season…and play reasonably well during that time. It never truly happened. He might’ve had one game you could call decent.
And while the Ws really, really WANTED Webb to come around. He never really did and was never going to. I do wish he had been able to.
Singing Webb was a waste of time and money…However, I don’t believe Webber’s signing had anything to do with Brandan Wright’s development. Nellie wasn’t playing him anyway. Wright only got in after Biedrins went down
BTW The +/- is not “Tim’s”…And a fairly decent measure of a players contributions on the floor.
Sean
P.S. I watch every game too…
Sean-
Actually C Webbs meter was made up by Tim, he wasn’t actually using the real stats…
I think that everybody who writes this off as no big deal because it didn’t cost much are missing a larger point. At the time of the signing Don Nelson’s stated reason was that he didn’t think they could make the playoffs without help. So the (foreseeable) il-fated decision to sign Webber potentially prevented the W’s from making a deal that could.
Good point Roscoe; this low cost, short term, low probability risk may have offset a more expensive long term one. Sometimes the best moves are the ones you don’t make.
Other than that, everyone who knew CobWebb’s body was older than his 35 years knew that this was the most likely outcome. A nice story if you’re printing Hallmark cards, otherwise a minor distraction.
Chris Webber, joins the ranks of players like Derrick Coleman and JR Rider; extremely talented without the discipline or character to max out that talent. One western conference finals, and where was he in the pivotal game seven?
This does justify that real sick feeling I got to my stomach when I first heard the news, by the way.
Yeah, Roscoe, I don’t buy it.
Look at the way the Grizzlies gave Gasol to the Lakers. Now, I know everyone says Jerry West was out of the loop on that trade, but come on, probably 15 teams offered more for Gasol than the Lakers did. Let’s face it, the Lakers got a preferred rate on that deal because of Jerry West.
My point being, if the Warriors had somehow been able to talk the Grizzlies into taking, say, Harrington, Pietrus and a first-round pick for Gasol (and that’s WAY more than the Grizzlies got, by the way), I’m sure Webber would have accepted being waived at that point.
Signing Webber did NOT prevent GS from making a trade; a scandal that the NBA needs to investigate, however, did.
And we all would have celebrated stealing Gasol for “only” Harrington, Pietrus and a first-round pick.
Next up: Lakers get Mike Miller for a pair of second-round Laker picks in 2010 and 2012. /sarcasm
alas, this was all too predictable. i don’t understand why management couldn’t use the formula that has worked so well for them in the past- signing a hungry young talent from the D-League for cheap (there are plenty out there by the way- please see Miami’s new lineup). apparently that just works for guards?
This experiment was a five-minute feel-good story in the media (nellie and cobwebb make up) and a huge wasted opportunity to work someone with some long-term potential into the rotation. As great as Brandan Wright’s been playing, he is NOT going to be able to guard Boozer, Duncan, or hell even Scola.
Gasol to the dubs was never more than fan speculation; though I doubt Jerry West was involved I certainly buy the angles that the league had some interest in one of its biggest $$$ makers making more y’know? Same with KG to BOS. It’s not that the NBA is the WWF, so much as there are definitely elements of theater and business that hold particular sway.
What has been completely overlooked by Tim and some others is the good accomplished by having Webber around in practices and in games for a few weeks for a team whose big men are young and in need of a good basketball education. Webber’s playmaking and smarts had to have rubbed off on BW a little and Andris and even Harrington. Nellie brought him in for his brain = because it’s good, if you’re a hoops genius to have someone around who can speak your language. Webber was their to raise the team’s basketball IQ. Nellie’s a sucker for smarts. And absolutely it was worth the risk.
Webber showed class throughout and doesn’t deserve the hammering you’ve been giving him Tim - and this is from someone who loathed Webber a decade ago.
I agree with Mano De Nada (#24) as to how the Lakers landed Gasol. The NBA has two long-standing promotional philosophies: 1) promote the stars, and 2) have strong, winning franchises in the large media centers. They will distort the purity of the game, league rules and competitive balance to promote those philosophies. They learned that from an unlikely source: even the most casual basketball fan paid to see the highly promoted and entertaining Harlem Globe Trotters - nobody cared that they were playing the Washington Generals.
When I spoke of the W’s possibly passing on another deal to sign Webber, I wasn’t specifically speaking of Gasol. I don’t even know if there was even a viable deal to be had. Its just that if they had concluded that help was needed to reach the playoffs, prudence would dictate that they exercised due diligence of the entire market. I hope they did; because I doubt that many people (fans, writers, players, or other teams)other than Don Nelson and Chris Mullin thought that Webber would prove to be the help we needed.
Gasol to the Warriors was never more than fan speculation.
You are correct.
However, we can be certain that many, many other teams would have been willing to send more to Memphis than what the Lakers sent. If it turns out that one of those many teams was the Warriors, seriously, would you be surprised?
Signing Webber did not prevent GS from making a deal.
Period.
You’re just going to have to use your noodle on this one.
Otis, that’s Grade A Horse Puckey there in #25.
POB and Perovic are still not good enough for Nelson and one of them won’t even stick around. That’s how much CWhy helped. Wright is pure talent and nothing like Webber. At all. Webb was so unbelievably slow and worthless in his brief time while playing negative post minutes, any thought of him helping youngsters is beyond stupid. He was supposed to play but Nellie was dead wrong. Period. That’s all.
Biedrins was better than he is now and he’s been worked over by the Nelson schizoid big man act and should just find a new home if this is the thanks he gets for being the Warriors’ most important player on many occasions (check the defensive stats and +/- info on him per minute, for starters).
Webber’s return was bulls__t from day one and now he’s retiring as a Warrior. WTF?!
Nelson and Mullin are screwing with me.
Barfighter said from the very beginning this was a bad move and not in any sense that this would retard the development of Brandon Wright but would set back the momentum that had been restablished by the starters since the return of Captain Jack.
This appeared at the time to be a low risk move but could have large ramifications as to playoff positioning and even non entry. Due to Webbers detrimental play in losses to teams the Warriors should have beaten could he be the margin of error as to not entering the playoffs? I don’t think so, the Warriors are too resiliant and Papa Don too crafty and determined to ever allow that to happen.
As to Brandon Wright, if you recall Papa Don had a similiar young talent grow at a rate appropriate to his talent and skill development and not to the whims of petulant fans and radio talk show personalities. That player is now the starting shooting guard for your Golden Sate Warriors. I guess that’s why he will be a hall of fame coach and neither of the former. Go Papa Don Nelson!!!! Go Warriors!!!.
“Signing Webber did not prevent GS from making a deal.”
But signing Webber sure made not trading before the deadline much more palatable (to the paying fan base especially, who appreciate good soap operatic theatrics when they see it). They did make *some* sort of move, after all; an attempt to fill a known void. In the long run it’s probably the smarter move, since it limits the dubs’ obligations. Job #1 has to be resigning Monta and Andris (who isn’t being worked by coach so much as his recovery from surgery I’m guessing).
As for CobWebb; it was always a low probability low expense risk. Probably got the $$$ back in selling stories to the Enquirer. Maybe we are making Hallmark cards after all?!?
Good points, CC, on both BW and Goose. As to the former, Nellie should have started playing him months ago — and should be playing him 10-15 minutes EVERY game by now. (That six-man rotation against LA sure worked, didn’t it? Nothing like seeing your guys run out of steam in overtime. And losing to the Lakers at home — with them missing BOTH Gasol and Bynum — augers inauspiciously for the W’s in the playoffs, even if they make it.)
As to the latter, AB’s got a terrific personality, that allows him to take Nellie’s crap pretty well. But it IS obviously wearing on him as this season progresses. While I love Nellie, his incredible distaste for big men (and, frankly, Nowitski is the only exception I can call up) is always destructive in the long run.
Nellie should be far more enthusiastic about BOTH AB and BW, even playing them together a bit. But he’s unlikely to change his stripes at this late date. Too bad, too, because THIS team — properly coached by Nellie — could have had some legs in the playoff. Now the Big Three are showing their exhaustion — having played 40+ minutes almost every game — and AB and BW have NOT been brought along well, Nellie prefering to try almost anything else (e.g. CWebb). Oh, well.
Beans is hurt, truth to that, so he’s a little less frisky than he was. But he’s still our best biggie and Nellie has been bad since before the appendectomy.
He wno’t play Wright and Beans at the same time, and I think he said so– not enough shooting, especially if Ellis makes 3 non 3-point threats.
The act wears thin…
Again, I don’t want to compare myself to an NBA athlete, but I am in pretty good shape. When I had my own appy in July of 2006, it took about 6 months for the pain to go away completely.
AB is a lot younger and stronger than I am, but still, had anyone asked me to do what Biedrins is doing less than a month after surgery, I’m pretty sure I’d be dead by now.
Appendectomies hurt for a long time, even if you’re in NBA shape. Or NFL shape; just ask Ben.
AB has nothing but my complete respect at this point. I think he has Nellie’s, too.
#20, #23, #28, #30, #31
Talk is cheap isn’t it? Nellie’s a hack, Webber’s a (take your pick!), Monte’s a one note wonder, Jax is inconsistent, AB has no intensity, Harrington has funny wrinkles on his forehead, Azibuke is too hard to spell, Baron doesn’t always bring it… blah.. blah… blah…
I’ll be at the game tomorrow!
See YOU there?
GO WARRIORS! Get’em JAX!
#33 is apparently the thought police?
Really interesting thoughts and observations on how useless Chris Webber was to the Warrior organization.
Is he going to be hired as a coach or executive to screw that up now, too? He’s a smooth talker, will he get Bob Fitzgerald out of the booth (fingers honestly crossed on that one).
Thanks for your insights.
Sorry, 34. Brain Surgeon = Psycho
Sean,
The +/- is a good statistic, if its done by an outside, non bias statistician. Tim’s +/- scale is simply what HE felt Webber did on a nightly basis, and from no real source other than his own ars! A real +/- can be very useful, but not one thats made up on Tim’s intuition!
Again, the fact that Webber is retiring is besides the point. Tim was wrong to judge the man for trying to help the franchise, and in the end Webber retired citing the teams chemistry as a factor. The Dubs lost nothing, and if you thing the veteran minimum is a lot too lose, your mistaken, especially when concidering the deep pockets of Cohen.
I would argue, in fact, that the Warriors gained from the experience. An old rift was finally put to rest, and Nelly got to experiment a little in an attempt to get better.
As an entrepreneur I understand that failure can be very beneficial, as only once one learns from his failures, can he truly be a success. This is a fundamental truth that extends far beyond the business world.
Lastly, I did not mean to question your fanaticism regarding the Warriors. I was questioning the fact that Tim obviously does not watch enough Dubs games, as he stated it would be C Webs fault if the Dubz missed the playoffs by one game. On the contrary, as fans that watch every game, we know that the home loss to the T-Wolves will be the reason the Dubz missed the playoffs.
NEXT!
OakFoSho