Hybrid owners, you’ve been duped: your gas mileage (and cost advantage) is worse than you thought
By Vindu Goel
Monday, May 14th, 2007 at 6:59 pm in Business, Public Policy.
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Owners of hybrid vehicles like the Toyota Prius (right) have long complained that their gas mileage is nowhere near the “official” fuel economy standard listed on the car sticker.
My colleague, Gary “Mr. Roadshow” Richards, recently blamed poor driving habits for the disappointing mileage results that some readers have gotten. Megan Tresham of Santa Cruz wrote to him:
The salesman was eager to tell us how wonderful our mileage would be in a used 2005 model - 50 mpg easy, he said. Not quite. This winter we were lucky if we got 35. Lucky! Now that the weather has warmed up, we average around 40, but only because we are obsessive about our driving. We drive without shoes. We drive slow. We coast whenever possible. Is our hybrid really that much better for the environment than a regular Civic? Did we make a good choice or did we get duped?
I’m here to tell Megan and every other hybrid driver: you got duped.
The Environmental Protection Agency’s outdated official mileage standards far overstate the actual mileage that anyone will get with any kind of car. The agency doesn’t account for higher speed limits, stop-and-go driving, use of air conditioning and other issues that drivers face in the real world.
The agency admitted the problems last year and overhauled its mileage rating procedures (for the truly obsessed, 179 pages of gory detail here). The new mileage numbers, which first apply to 2008 models, are due out any day now.
The data is expected to show a big drop in fuel economy for hybrids — and every other car. How big? We’re talking estimated drops of around 20 percent.
Wired magazine reports that the beloved Prius’ official mileage will drop from 60 city/51 highway to 48 city/45 highway, based on estimates from auto data giant Edmunds.com.
The Honda Civic hybrid (left), which so many of Gary’s readers wrote in about, will drop from 49 city/51 highway to about 40 city/45 highway.
You can check out the revised numbers for your exact car using this handy government calculator, which covers model years 1985 to 2007.
Of course, mileage ratings for all cars will drop. But the changes will lengthen the “breakeven” point for hybrid owners to recoup the extra cost of their car from gasoline savings. Says Wired:
According to a formula devised by Edmunds, it would take nearly 10 years to recoup the extra costs after buying a 2007 Mercury Mariner Hybrid, up from 6.6 according to the old mileage ratings. For the 2007 Honda Accord and Honda Civic hybrids it takes 14.5 and 6.5 years, respectively.
The 2007 Toyota Prius remains a good bargain when compared to a similarly equipped 2007 Toyota Camry — it takes just 1.2 years to break even.
There are still all kinds of good reasons to buy hybrids, which emit fewer greenhouse gases and could save more money than anticipated if gasoline prices keep rising.
But the deal isn’t as good as it used to be, and buyers need to shop carefully.
And Megan and all those other hybrid owners can rest assured that they weren’t crazy. The government was.
(Photo of 2007 Toyota Prius Touring Edition courtesy of Toyota. Photo of 2007 Honda Civic Hybrid courtesy of Honda.)
[Both comments and pings are currently closed.]
May 15th, 2007 at 8:55 am
Hybrid vehicles do not get lousy gas mileage, and the person who wrote the misleading headline to Vindu Goel’s article should be ashamed. Do the math: if both a gas-guzzler and a hybrid get 20 percent fewer miles to the gallon than the old EPA estimates, then driving the hybrid saves even more gallons of gasoline than was previously thought.
That said, Megan Tresham’s poor gas mileage is probably largely due to her making a lot of short trips: any car does poorly until the engine is warmed up, and this effect is worse in the winter, as she has observed. I suspect she could further increase her fuel economy by inflating the tires to the maximum indicated on the sidewall (this will give her a stiffer but safer ride, too), and even by not overfilling the engine oil.
For my 2006 Prius this past winter, my freeway gas mileage was regularly in the low 50s. When other people drive my car, it drops to about 48 mpg.
May 15th, 2007 at 9:05 am
In my remarks about tire pressure, I should have mentioned that, for the Prius, the rear tires should always be inflated to 2 psi less than the front.
May 15th, 2007 at 10:00 am
Hey Peter, guess what? Vindu Goel probably made that headline. After all, its his article.
BTW, if the EPA is to blame, why doesn’t Vindu just explicitly say the US government duped the American public.
Either way, IMO, this article is just sensationalist crap written by a spoiled brat.
May 15th, 2007 at 11:57 am
so if the gas mileage is lower, does that mean these hybrids should no longer have the carpool stickers???
May 15th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
I did in fact write the headline, which was playing off Megan’s question asking whether she’d been duped.
As for who did the duping, that’s a bit complicated. Certainly the government was duping everyone about every car — mileage just isn’t as high as it claimed.
But the car industry is just as much to blame. If you read the full Gary Richards column that I linked to, a big part of the discussion was the exaggerated claims made by the salespeople peddling the hybrids.
The automakers also go along with the deception because it eases pressure on them to improve the gas mileage of their entire fleet. If people knew how bad mileage really is — and they’re about to find out with 2008 models — they wouldn’t put up with the lousy performance they’re getting from the industry.
Hybrid owners could be particularly distressed by the new “truth in mileage” rules because in many cases, the mileage rating on their cars is falling more sharply than for regular cars.
For example, combined city/highway mileage for the regular Honda Civic is falling 12 percent, but it’s a 16 percent drop for the hybrid version. The Saturn Vue’s mileage is falling 4 percent, but the hybrid version is falling 10 percent.
Hybrids still get better mileage than a comparable non-hybrid car, but the extra upfront cost might not be worth it for many people, especially since California no longer offers carpool-lane stickers for hybrid buyers.
May 15th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
Yet another sensational but totally misleading article title.
May 15th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
I just checked out the mileage under old & new guidelines using the calculator linked in the text… my car drops 1 MPG highway, 1 MPG city, and 1 MPG combined. I’m feeling pretty smart right about now. I won’t mention it is a 5.7L Hemi powered 4WD Dodge Durango where highway estimates are dropping from 18 to 17. Big whoop. However, when I drive as carefully as I can at 55 MPH, I have measured 28 MPG going from Silicon Valley to Santa Rosa and back. At 65, my mileage drops to 24 MPG. At 75, I get 18 MPG. So… I think the new estimates are much more realistic, but it certainly is possible to beat those new estimates if you are careful.
May 15th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Give me a break. I have owned a 2006 Civic Hybrid for over a year now. The average mpg over that period (13k+ miles) is 44mpg (using odometer/gallons pumped). I live in the Santa Cruz mountains and have a 2000′ elevation change on my daily commute–not exactly ideal territory for good gas mileage. That being said, driving style has a large impact on mileage. Jackrabbit starts, late braking, hard acceleration, etc. will negatively affect the mileage on any car you drive. I keep my tires inflated to about 38psi which makes about a 1-2mpg difference.
As for the increased cost of a hybrid, that’s another red herring. My Civic Hybrid came with standard features that were upgrades on the regular Civic (even the EX). In the end I spent about $2k more than an equivalent Civic EX. But here in California, people regularly spend much more than that for options like: a premium interior, sport package, engine upgrade, leather seats, etc. The difference is that the hybrid upgrade actually reduces the cost of ownership of the vehicle (lower gas costs, fewer brake pad changes due to regenerative braking, etc.). With the current price of gas, my upgrade will pay for itself in about 4 years. Will your XM Satellite radio, nav system, leather interior, or Hemi do that? I didn’t think so. A hybrid is an “efficiency package” and a lot of people are willing to pay for it. It makes a tangible difference in the consumption of imported fossil fuels and the production of greenhouse gases.
So please give the anti-hybrid rhetoric a rest and do a better job of fact finding. That’s what journalism is about.
Doug
May 15th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
For the record, I’m not anti-hybrid. I don’t own one personally, but I think that eventually, all cars should move in that direction.
Since so many of you objected to the headline on this piece, I have now adjusted it to be more directly on point to what the blog post is about. I appreciate the feedback on it. And unlike the paper, it’s easy to change the headline on a blog post.
May 15th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
I’m so tired of sensationalist, tabloid journalism masquerading as news. You and the Merc should both be ashamed for publishing such garbage. Your article title and opening few paragraphs were deplorable.
I challenge ANYBODY to call 48/45 “lousy mileage” with a straight face, but that’s what you say in your article title. You have zero credibility after writing something like that. Zero.
Further, I’m honestly flabbergasted that Megan Tresham says she could only get 35mpg in a Prius. I rented one for two weeks in December and got nearly 50mpg. How? I drove the speed limit (or a little over) and didn’t gun the car away from a stop. No shoes-off driving or other gymnastics.
It’s hardly rocket science: mileage drops dramatically with speed. If you drive 75 or 80, the wind resistance “pushing back” on your car as you drive goes up exponentially compared to driving 65. This hurts the Prius a bit less than the average suburban assault vehicle, because Toyota actually put some effort into aerodynamics. But, it still makes a difference. And, by the way, if you drive 30 miles at 65, you get there 3 minutes later than if you drove 75. Edmunds did a test and found that you get 12% better mileage by driving 65 than by driving 75. Are those extra 3 minutes really worth that much?
However, Megan says that she “drove slow”, so perhaps Peter Chastain is right when he suspects lots of short trips, which hurt the mileage on any car, but is not as bad on the Prius because it has sophisticated engine pre-heat technology.
It’s also certainly possible that Megan’s tire pressures were low. I’d disagree with Peter, though, on the idea of inflating the tires to maximum sidewall pressure. For proper handling, the tires should be inflated to the specifications in the owner’s manual, and should be checked relatively often.
Let me just close by saying: shame on you. Shame on you for sacrificing accuracy and honesty for sensationalism.
May 15th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Mike, Peter, MHuynh,
I’m sorry that you feel the piece is sensationalistic. My piece is full of facts, and I offer you links to places to get many more facts.
I do think Megan was duped by the salesman — her Civic hybrid was unlikely to get 50 mpg, according to the revised government figures.
The most important fact of all: the breakeven point for hybrids is going to lengthen for most, if not all, of the cars. That’s a big deal for a lot of people, especially those in the valley (and there are many) that don’t make a lot of money and can’t afford the higher upfront price tag of a hybrid.
May 15th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Vindu,
Wow, hybrids aren’t quite the fuel-economy bargain that’s been claimed? What a shock!
</sarcasm<
May 15th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Toyota says it’s aiming to go 100 percent hybrid by 2020, according to a discussion on Slashdot today.
May 15th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
check out ford.uk, or honda.uk. In europe they actually sell diesel powered non-hybrid cars, which get around 50 mpg or more. here in the good old U.S.A. we need more affordable fuel saving vehicles such as europe has. we are left with no choice when it comes to fuel economy here just a Prius or Civic, unless you want to spend 25k or more for a Hybrid SUV. I think we are all getting duped.
May 15th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Vindu,
That’s sad, because Toyota will lose my business. I currently drive a Tundra; when I go to replace it, I’ll buy from one of Toyota’s competitors rather than buy a crappy-performing hybrid model, even if by then Toyota’s managed to reduce the price of hybrid drivetrains so that they’re no more expensive than a conventional pure-IC drivetrain. Why spend the same money for less truck?
Hybrids are fashion statements, pure and simple. Their only appeal is to buyers’ moral/environmental vanity, not their wallets and not their need for road performance.
May 15th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
Mr. Roadshow himself chimes in. Gary Richards sent me the following e-mail after reading my post and gave me permission to post it:
I look at this another way. I traded in my Honda Accord (22-24 mpg) for the Prius, and I consistently get 48-50 mpg. Oddly enough, when I drive only highways, the mileage is higher — 52-54 mpg.
Were we duped? My dad told me 40 years ago that the mileage ratings were just best estimates and nowhere close to reality. This of course was way before hybrids.
The Accord needed $2,000 of work to pass the next smog test. With the tax credit of $3,000 for the Prius plus the mileage savings, I figure I will be ahead of the game in less than two years.
May 15th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
Vindu,
You can’t hide behind the claim that “[your] piece is full of facts” when those facts show up halfway through the piece, after the sensationalistic (now edited, but still in the URL) headline and this ridiculous sentence: “I’m here to tell Megan and every other hybrid driver: you got duped.”
I have some sympathy for the notion that Megan’s salesperson told her misleading information. I’m trying to think of a car salesperson I’ve ever met who didn’t do that to me. I do think that it’s valuable to point out to consumers that the EPA ratings are optimistic, and particularly so with hybrids. But, that doesn’t alter the simple fact that a well-designed hybrid does get significantly better mileage than a similar gas-only car. However, I believe that can be done without making unsupportable, sensationalistic blanket claims.
I’m sorry that I misunderstood Megan’s story to say that she was driving a Prius. I have no first-hand experience with the Honda. Perhaps its much less sophisticated hybrid system doesn’t perform up to the Prius’s standard. For example, the Honda can not drive at all on electric-only power, even in a parking lot. In stop-and-go driving, this feature of the Prius makes a big difference.
As for BC, I find his attitude depressing. BC, you seem to assume that hybrids are poor performers, but I wonder upon what you base that assumption? Certainly, the Toyota-produced hybrids I’ve driven (Prius & Lexus) have both had very good performance. Before leaping to conclusions, I hope you’ll drive the eventual hybrid truck…
May 15th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
My my, but hybrid owners seem to be an oversensitive lot. It’s not like your sister’s being insulted, for crying out loud!
Regardless of the headline text (which is created to draw your attention to the piece), the piece seems very balanced and even handed as it addresses the longstanding EPA mileage problem in the context of hybrid vehicles.
Personally, my wife and I are waiting for a wider variety of hybrid options to become available (i.e. what Subaru might eventually produce), and also for the 100K SubaruCare warranty to expire on our 2001 Forester (it’s at about 73K right now) before we shop for a hybrid.
So we’ll live with our 27mpg AWD Subaru for a couple more years, but it’s a pretty safe bet that our next vehicle will be a hybrid.
May 15th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
49 mpg is what I get in a Prius. Which is exactly as I expected. The EPA estimate is equally inaccurate for both cars I own, so there was no “duping” involved.
As for cost breakeven, who knows. That will depend on the long- term reliability. But the brakes don’t wear out, it has no conventional transmission to break, and the engine only runs when it’s needed. So the long-term picture may be excellent. In the meanwhile, I’ll enjoy the 49 mpg.
May 15th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Mike,
I should make clear that when I say hybrids are poor performers, I am speaking in comparison to pure internal combusion vehicles, and not in terms of ordinary commuter driving.
But what makes me “assume” hybrids are poor performers relative to pure IC vehicles in premium-performance situations is this thing called physics. Without getting into a lot of car geeking, the transmission in a hybrid is driven in part by an electric motor powered by a battery, and in part by a weed-eater IC engine. The weed-eater is powerful enough to push the vehicle along at a relatively constant speed, but if you need to accelerate or go uphill, it has to get help from the electric motor. And because transferring stored energy from a battery is always less efficient than burning fuel directly, the electric motor is inferior to using one big IC engine to push pistons.
To put this a somewhat different way: When you floor the accelerator in your Prius, you’re running entirely off the battery, which produces 67 horses at 1200 rpm. When you floor the accelerator in a Corolla, its IC engine is producing 126 horses at 6000 rpm. Sure, the Corolla’s engine is redlined, but so what? If you need the power, you need the power, and the Prius doesn’t measure up.
Similar problems arise when you’re talking about hauling. Say you’ve reached 40mph in your Prius and you’re out on the freeway, where you’re running almost entirely on the weed-eater. This thing can generate 82 pound-feet of torque at 4200 rpm. Meanwhile the Corolla can generate 122 pound-feet of torque at 4200 rpm. With any kind of non-trivial cargo, the Corolla out-perfoms the Prius; the Prius will have to continually draw power from its batteries to keep up, but, again, the batteries aren’t as efficient as the IC engine. When you scale up to a pickup, if you increase the size of the engine so that it’s capable of producing enough torque for hauling, then not only do you not need a battery to handle off-the-line power requirements, but you’ve completely compromised the fuel-economy benefits of the hybrid (bigger engine drinks more gas); and if you don’t increase the size of the gas engine to the point where it can produce a whole lot of torque, then you have a pickup that can’t carry a load.
This is really a roundabout way of saying that it’s not an “assumption” that hybrids are poor performers relative to traditional internal-combustion vehicles. It’s just fact, and barring serious advances in engine or battery technology, will remain fact. If 99% of your driving consists of long freeway commutes, then you can probably go your whole life and never realize that the hybrid underperforms, but if you find yourself needing instant or sustained engine power for any reason, the hybrid just doesn’t measure up.
May 15th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
My 20 year old Toyota Camry 4 cyl still gets 32-34mpg on the highway @ 70mph. Since most of my commute is on the highway during non rush hour times there is no reason to buy a new car. I’d be paying three times the insurance cost, three times the registration tax, etc. I would also give up a fairly versatile vehicle with a big 16 cubic foot trunk and plenty of room for passengers.
I’ve been looking at new cars that take regular gas and are similar in size to my old Toyota. There are very few to choose from. The Mazda 3, Nissan Sentra, Toyota Corolla, and Honda Civic. These are all less than 16K and top out at 40 MPG according to specs. Not much of an improvement over what I already have.
Hybrids are an unknown when it comes to lifespan. How long will those batteries really last in real life, and what is the replacement cost? How does the lead acid battery disposal affect the planet? That is NEVER mentioned in all the “hybrid is good and green” articles. Will a Prius last 20 years like my Camry?
If a Prius had a simple diesel engine in it, could it still get 50 mpg without a $8k or more hybrid tax?
May 16th, 2007 at 8:15 am
With all due respect to the author, I own a 2006 Civic Hybrid and I have consistently come close/beaten the current EPA ratings with each tank! This morning I drove in rush hour on surface streets to downtown San Jose and got nearly 54 mpg for the trip. People cannot drive them the same way as a regular car and still get the full benefit. There is definitely a learning curve involved.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:06 am
I’ve owned seven cars (from a four cylinder Chevy to a “modified” eight cylinder Camaro) and none of them (except my 06 Civic Hybrid) comes remotely close to the EPA estimate. Was I duped by the hybrid? I average 45 MPG on my commute and had 51 MPG on my last tank (yes, I keep a gas log for ALL my cars) so absolutely not. As for the car salesman. Maybe the title should be “duped by the car salesman, fill in your cliche here” You know the old joke, how can you tell if the car salesman is lying? When his lips are moving.
Unfortunately, hybrid bashing seems to be popular. I wonder if GM came up with the technology and instead of calling it a hybrid, say “uncle Wally’s miracle gas mileage enhancer”, would it be as sensational? Sure it costs more but it also works. Anti-lock brakes also work. Do you have a blog complaining the consumers have been duped because they haven’t saved enough lives?
May 16th, 2007 at 10:30 am
I certainly do not feel duped. I outperform the EPA stated mileage on my 2006 Civic Hybrid. Over the past 8,000 miles (10,000 miles total driving), I have gotten 53.7 mpg. Megan Tresham quoted above may be “obsessive about (her) driving,” but she needs to learn a thing or two about how to drive her car. The stated EPA fuel economy is easily possible.
May 16th, 2007 at 10:50 am
BC, you’ve made some errors in your analysis. First of all, most people aren’t driving around towing trailers, boats, etc. If you need to do that, you’re currently better off buying a diesel vehicle for maximum torque.
Most of what you state in your scenario about the Prius and the way it works is just not correct. All hybrid vehicles are capable of combining IC and electric output and coupling it to the drivetrain. So you need to ADD the electric motor power to the IC power. I don’t know the detailed specs on the Prius, but on the Civic, the 1.3L VTEC engine plus electric motor will produce 110hp total. But the brushless DC motor produces maximum torque at low RPM, just where the IC has the lowest torque. So what you end up with is a much flatter torque vs. RPM curve.
The Civic Hybrid’s VTEC engine has three valve timing modes–all off (coasting, braking, no gas consumed), pseudo-Atkinson (normal cruising–high efficiency), and power (acceleration, passing, etc.). So you aren’t stuck with a “weed eater” engine all the time.
The comments about battery efficiency are laughable. In a non-hybrid vehicle braking is achieved by friction which produces heat and abrades brake pads and disks/drums. This is a 100% loss of energy. In a hybrid, a goodly part of this energy is captured and stored in the battery for later use. It’s not a 100% conversion, but it’s a lot better than 0% which is what you have. Only rarely is the output of the IC used to charge the battery.
Another nice thing about most hybrids is the CVT. This little bit of engineering allows the IC to run at its most efficient point (when cruising) or at its optimal power point (when accelerating). There is no “hunting” behavior in hilly terrain as with the old 20th century discrete gear transmission. The CVT also produces an extremely nice ride–no lurching at gear shifts, etc.
I think you need to study a little more (with an open mind) and then go test drive one of these vehicles. Just for the record, I recently had to rent a car while my hybrid was in the body shop (fender bender). I got a Chevy (Daewoo) Aveo. 1.6L IC, 125hp. On the same commute route I got 23mpg in that car. It is similar in size and weight to the Civic Hybrid, but was not at all enjoyable to drive. It had more trouble in the mountains than my hybrid.
Michael Porter brings up the battery question. No hybrids use lead acid batteries for the drivetrain. yes, they have the standard 12V battery for accessories just like all other cars. The hybrid battery pack is NiMH (not NiCad which is toxic) and recyclable. As for lifetime, Honda warrants the entire hybrid drivetrain including the battery for 80kmiles/8years except in a few states (including CA) where it is 100k/10years. Replacement cost is currently about $2-3k. Honda has a lot of experience with this technology having had many Insights on the road since 1999. I fully expect to run this car for more than 10years (150k+ miles). I kept my last Civic for 140k.
Doug
May 16th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Well, Vindu, I’m going to go a bit off-topic. As some of the wise folks above note, gas consumption increases dramatically at the highest speeds. If we changed the maximum speed on freeways to 55 MPH again, how much gas could we save in this state? In the entire country? Sure, some people would still break the speed laws, but wouldn’t we save barrels & barrels of oil?
And the time difference in getting to your destination going 55 MPH (instead of 65 MPH) is much less than the difference between going 20 MPH vs 40 MPH, so that shouldn’t be much of a hardship for many folks.
Readers, please don’t hate on me for bringing this up, but I think we could save enormous amounts of gas by doing this. And BC, about your considering buying a Prius to be a “fashion statement”, I strenuously disagree. I don’t much care much what strangers think of the car I drive, but I do care about the environment. And aren’t a lot of car purchases (think fancy sports cars & pimped-out SUVs) fashion statements, anyway? But how many of them come with the opportunity to also help save some gas?
Em
May 16th, 2007 at 8:03 pm
Doug,
You are simply mistaken that hybrids uniformly combine the weed-eater and the electric motor in all power scenarios. In a Prius the gas engine does not even turn on until the vehicle hits 40mph; it simply cannot provide enough torque to push the car from a dead stop. Thus if you’re accelerating from a dead stop, you’re using the electric motor and only the electric motor, which is feeble compared to any traditional IC engine. By the same token, even in power scenarios where both the weed-eater and the electric motor are available, their horses aren’t strictly additive; they’re rarely if ever both providing their full power to the transmission, even with your foot to the floor.
It’s my understanding that the Honda hybrids operate somewhat differently: the gas engine is larger and the electric motor is smaller than in the Prius. The electric motor produces few horses but a lot of torque, so you’re running off the gas engine most of the time and getting extra torque from the electric motor when you need to accelerate quickly. But I note that the inline four-banger in the standard Civic sedan kicks out 140 horses. So even if the power from IC engine and the electric motor in your hybrid Civic sedan is strictly additive in all cases — and please feel free to check my math, here — 110 horsepower is still less than 140 horsepower. So here, again, you’re paying more upfront for less performance, with your only solace being the knowledge that you’ve got the Al Gore Seal Of Approval, and that with better fuel economy you might recoup the extra expense of the hybrid drivetrain in six or eight years. That’s a great selling point if you’ve got more environmentalist fervor than sense, but when I go to the dealership I’m there to buy a car, not make a progressive social statement.
With respect to battery efficiency, whether or not the hybrid recovers energy from braking is completely beside the point. That’s a fuel economy consideration, not an engine performance consideration. There is no battery in existence that can transfer power to an electric motor faster and more efficiently than an internal-combustion reaction can push pistons. A hybrid could recover 100% of the energy from braking — heck, it could violate the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy and recover 200% of the energy from braking — and would still lack the acceleration curve of a pure-IC version of the same car.
Yes, if all I did was tow around a boat, I’d buy a diesel. But that’s not all I do. Similarly, if all I did was commute from San Jose to Vacaville, then I’d buy a hybrid. But that’s not all I do, either. Fortunately there are traditional IC vehicles that meet all my driving needs rather than just some of them; and if Toyota ceases to produce such vehicles, then they’ll lose me as a customer to a manufacturer who will. I won’t condescend to you like you’ve done to me and suggest that you ought to endeavor to cure your misconceptions about the versatility and performance of hybrids, but I will note that evangelism by hybrid proponents like yourself won’t magically turn hybrids into all-purpose vehicles. I have studied hybrids with an open mind — I’m a car nerd, how could I not? — and my considered conclusion is that your emperor has no clothes.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Another view, from my colleague Matt Nauman, who is the Merc’s auto editor: He agrees that hybrids get a lot lower mileage than advertised, but says hybrid owners are so obsessed with their cars that there’s no possibility they were duped — they knew what they were getting into.
His full blog post is here.
May 17th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
BC,
I’m not sure where you’re getting your information about how a Prius works, but you’re mistaken. Have you ever driven a Prius? The gas engine does come at speeds lower than 40 mph. In driving my Prius, it is difficult to keep the gas engine from coming on when accelerating from a dead stop. In most situations, if you try to accelerate with only the electric motor, you would accelerate so slowly that you’d be holding up everyone behind you! You can actually use the electric motor only to move accelerate from a stop, but it’s usually only in areas when nobody else is around you!
May 17th, 2007 at 5:18 pm
So does this mean someone is going to knock on my door and demand payment for the difference between the 52 MPG I have gotten over the past 24,000 miles and the new EPA claim?
I and my friends Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson are looking forward to the visit and hope they bring Mr. Vindu Goel with them.
Bob Wilson
May 17th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
James,
Yes, I’ve actually driven a Prius. I stand by what I said, above.
May 17th, 2007 at 8:47 pm
At http://www.greenhybrid.com, a compilation of 1701 drivers of the current model Prius (2004 and newer) average 47 miles per gallon. Because they have chosen to participate this is not a random population sample, but I sincerely doubt there are very many ‘liars’ among them.
Over 105,000 miles of driving my 2001 Prius I have averaged 45 mpg. But more important I would suggest is the total cost of ownership in cents per mile, including fuel, service, insurance, depreciation, and all the rest of it. For me this has been about 22 cents/mi. This is a low number for any car purchased new, and I would encourage others with complete records to add ‘em up and say how you’re doing. EPA and AAA say the average is about 55 cents/mi, by the way.
For any hybrid driver who is having trouble getting mpg that satisfies them, by all means please drop in at one of the internet discussion groups. You will find much helpful assistance, and can also get a clear idea of how they actually work.
DAS
May 18th, 2007 at 1:41 am
BC: you seem deeply misinformed. Also note that just like a regular internal combustion engine, hybrid powertrains come in different flavours to suit different needs. While the Civic and Prius have been geared for maximum fuel efficiency (and lower power/acceleration), the Camry Hybrid is more middle-ground, providing a slight boost in power and acceration while also being more frugal with fuel. At the other end of the spectrum is the Accord Hybrid, with minimal fuel savings over the gas-only version, but with blistering performance.
At the moment, you don’t get to choose which level of power (at efficiency trade-off) you want within a single model as you can with gas-only cars (choosing between V4 and V6 engines for instance), but that’s not a fault of the hybrid technology itself, just the choices/costs of the manufacturer. If and when Toyota goes all-hybrid, you’ll probably be able to make that choice.
May 18th, 2007 at 10:56 am
Thuf,
Honda achieves “blistering performance” in Accord hybrids by giving them the same size gas engine (2997 cu cm3 displacement V6) available in high-end gas-only Accord sedans, and then supplementing their power with an additional electric motor. Using them as a comparison point for performance of hybrid drivetrains versus pure-IC drivetrains is utterly and completely dishonest: taking two cars, and dropping additional, electric horses under the hood of one of them, in no way demonstrates any sort of performance superiority on the part of hybrid drivetrains.
May 19th, 2007 at 11:11 am
I own a 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid. It is a 4000 pound ( with passenger ) SUV that CONSISTANTLY meets or beats EPA estimates. I have averaged 37.5 MPG and that includes everything… even 20 below zero winters. In excellent condtions, I get 45-55 MPG in this very large vehicle.
Duped? Hardly. This is the best find in the world!
People like yourself and the lady quoted need to understand that hybrids drive slightly different. Once people learn this, they can take advantage of the hybrid’s strengths. The first week I had mine, I was getting about 33 MPG. (exactly EPA) Over many weeks, I “learned” how the hybrid was special. Now, I get 44 MPG almost daily. -John
May 19th, 2007 at 11:27 am
C’mon, “worse than I thought?” What you overlook is that every hybrid I know of has a real time monitor that tells you what your mileage is. I get 48.8 in my hybrid civic on a regular basis. Sometimes 52.3 over a 600 mile tank. Sometimes 45.4. Just depends. What matters to me is not what the EPA says I might get, but imagine this: WHAT I ACTUALLY GET. Shocking, I know. People like Megan who aren’t doing well for mileage in their hybrids wouldn’t get anywhere near the EPA figures in any other car– it’s their driving habits. Just think about it logically every time you’re stopped in traffic and the hybrid next to you isn’t idling and wasting all that gas.
And saying the deal isn’t as good as it used to be is just plain asinine. What matters is what real people get. (see http://www.greenhybrid.com) Gas mileage to be accurate should be expressed in ranges or deciles.
If CAFE standards or CARB or someone were to require all cars to indicate their mileage real time, you know how many Hummers and Suburbans would be sold a year? It shouldn’t shock people to discover that just because their speedometer goes to 120 mph, it doesn’t mean their car does, and just because they think their car gets 27 mph doesn’t mean it really does. Unfortunately, more often than I’d like to think– people are just ignorant about things like that.
May 19th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
ROI? Makes my head spin. All cars depreciate immediately. I didn’t buy the Prius to make money. I bought it to save money.
My average (caculated) is 48 mpg.
I’m on my way from Long Beach, CA to Rapid City S.D. LB. to Cedar City,Utah, 46.9 mpg. However, it took 1 tank from Cedar City to Rawlins, WY - 530 miles. The car is loaded with camping/cooking equipment, luggage for 2 and a road bike. I set the cruise control at 64 mph. Over hill and dale.
Gosh! I just tingle all over!
May 20th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
I know that many of you disagreed with my piece on hybrids, and I really appreciate your taking the time to tell me where you thought I got it wrong. Your comments have added tremendously to the discussion and helped inform other readers of the post.
I am amazed that the diligent drivers amongst you can meet or even exceed EPA mileage estimates in your hybrids. That’s powerful testimony to the passionate care and attention that so many hybrid drivers lavish on their cars. In that sense, you weren’t duped — you showed you could beat the average driver and the government!
Ultimately, the cost-benefit analysis of buying a hybrid vs. a non-hybrid is going to depend on a lot of things: gas mileage, upfront costs, tax breaks, availability of carpool stickers, desire to save the planet, predictions about future gas prices and the sheer usefulness and appeal of a particular vehicle. (Edmunds.com discusses many of these factors in a helpful piece on its site, and a USA Today article discusses the declining tax credits for Toyota hybrids because so many have been sold, the federal government doesn’t feel it needs to subsidize them.)
The EPA mileage estimates are a small part of that decision — something that I perhaps didn’t make sufficiently clear in my original post.
By the way, if you are a hybrid fan and want to learn more about the cars, including how to optimize your hybrid performance, check out the very good GreenHybrid site (and I say that even though they trashed my post on their discussion board — ultimately, this blog isn’t about my ego but about getting good information to readers).
May 31st, 2007 at 9:31 am
I for one wasn’t duped. My 2008 Ford Escape Hybrid is listed at 34 city/31 highway. With a whopping 1400 miles on it (not through the break-in period), I’m getting 32.6 MPG, which is the advertised combined mileage. And I’m not even doing some of the techniques urged by hypermilers; I’m obeying the speed limit, keeping my RPMs from going too high (I don’t need to turn 3000 RPM to go 70), and keeping my speed level. You shouldn’t lump all hybrid owners together. Some may have been suckered in by inflated EPA estimates, but most of us did our homework first to see if these vehicles were right for us. Mine certainly is, and I couldn’t be more pleased with the performance I’m getting so far.
May 31st, 2007 at 11:32 am
Since there was so much interest in this post about hybrids, I wanted to let you know that the Mercury News editorial board (including me) came out in support of the Ira Ruskin “feebate” bill in the legislature.
The bill would set up a system of fees and rebates to reward buyers of fuel-efficient cars like hybrids and penalize buyers of gas-guzzlers.
You can read more here.
June 1st, 2007 at 10:13 pm
BC,
If you’ve driven a Prius and still think that the gas engine doesn’t come on until it reaches 40 mph, then there is really no point in discussing this further. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
James
June 4th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
James,
Right: clearly, I must have imagined my friend’s Prius accelerating on nothing but the electric motor until it hit 40mph, when I drove it. You’ll excuse me, I hope, while I roll my eyes.
As it happens, I’ve had occasion to speak with my buddy in the two weeks between my last post and your thread necromancy. He tells me that his vehicle has had some mechanical problems, and that normally the gas engine kicks in at about 15mph, not 40mph. I’m looking forward to seeing this for myself, though I remain properly skeptical that the hybrid can provide enough torque to accelerate smoothly at intermediate speeds.
Nevertheless, while you’re correct that there’s no point in discussing this further, you’re wrong that it’s because I don’t know what I’m talking about. The reason it’s impossible to have rational conversations with hybrid devotees is the same reason it’s impossible to have rational conversations with cultists; they cannot bear any criticism of their beloved vehicles, even if based on contrary experience and actual mechanical knowledge. You have provided an excellent case-in-point.
June 5th, 2007 at 8:48 am
B.C.
I’m not a Prius fanatic. I just happen to own one..and it’s just one of four vehicles. However, when somebody claims to be an expert on a subject and is clearly wrong about it, then it makes sense to say something. Your claims about how a correctly functioning Prius works are wrong, plain and simple. Go to a dealer and test drive one….the gas motor is always used in conjunction with the electric motor when you try to accelerate hard. Do some research on the web, instead of making up theories on how you think hybrids work.
James
June 5th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
BC,
So your entire analysis and critique of hybrids is based on driving a malfunctioning Prius? I see. Would you mind if I compared my properly functioning Civic Hyrid to an old-fangled IC vehicle with clogged fuel injectors and a failing clutch? I didn’t think so.
Despite your claims, my car has done its job admirably for almost 15k miles. It gets me down and back up 2000′ of mountain every day without complaint. 45mpg is real. Driving my commute is real. Is it the perfect vehicle? No. Is it better than most? I think so.
As for your arguments regarding poor performance of electric motors–you are simply wrong. If you won’t allow yourself to obtain information, no one else can force it on you. For fun I recommend you check out teslamotors.com and see what can be achieved with all-electric drive.
Doug
June 8th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
ethanol…
Maybe this is the new revolution in our country. The energy revolution. If the government will not do anything it may be up to each of us to make a statement and play a role in solving the energy problem….
June 13th, 2007 at 2:38 am
Doug –
Er, no. My critique of the Prius’ off-the-line performance is based on my experience driving an evidently-malfunctioning Prius. My critique of hybrids goes pretty far beyond that experience. Further, even given a properly-functioning Prius, I have no expectation that it can out-perform an IC Corolla. Why? Because it can’t, according to Toyota’s own published specs.
I’m glad you like your Prius. The reality is that almost any comparably-sized IC car will outperform it. If you’re comfortable making the performance and price tradeoff for the 12-15mpg better than you’d get in the IC alternative, hey, who am I to argue? I just can’t grasp why you and your fellow hybrid
cultistsdevotees are so unwilling to concede that there is, in fact, a tradeoff involved.And yes, I’ve seen the Tesla Roadster. Note that the base price is around six figures. Note that the obscene performance is achieved through an electric motor that is colossal compared to anything in a hybrid, and is specifically tuned to provide high torque at low RPM (the performance advantage over gas vehicles is, in other words, engineering legerdemain, and doesn’t refute my point above about batteries not being able to transfer energy to electric motors as fast as burning fuel can push pistons). Note that it takes about four hours to refuel, notwithstanding the regenerative braking. It’s about as relevant to this conversation as a dissertation on the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.
June 14th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
“. . . given a properly-functioning Prius, I have no expectation that it can out-perform an IC Corolla. Why? Because it can’t, according to Toyota’s own published specs.”
46 MPG - Prius automatic (new EPA)
29 MPG - Corolla automatic (new EPA)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov
61/51 MPG - Prius automatic
26/35 MPG - Corolla automatic
http://www.toyota.com
Looks like the gas-only advocate is trying to dupe folks, again.
Bob Wilson
June 14th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Bob –
I’m not the one conflating fuel economy with performance. Who’s trying to dupe who, now?
October 26th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
“51 city/49 highway”….
hmm.
it was 49 city/51 highway in 2007,
and he says it’s 40/45 in reality.
guess what the 08 EPA estimates are?
40/45.
if he can’t get these sources right, what else did he make a mistake on??
October 26th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Bryce,
Hey, thanks for pointing out the 51/49 mistake for the mileage of the 2007 Civic hybrid. I actually got the original numbers from the Wired article references in my blog post. I guess they messed up. My bad for not double-checking with fueleconomy.gov.
As for the 40/45, what I said was that under the new system, the auto experts predicted the Civic would now show mileage of 40 city/45 highway. The fact that the 2008 model comes in at that level just proves the predictions were accurate.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
“Hybrid owners, you’ve been duped: your gas mileage (and cost advantage) is worse than you thought”
there’s a benefit 2 a hybrid vehicle besides fuel costs - emissions. this way you’re not destroying the one planet we get to live on.
November 6th, 2007 at 10:14 am
I am waiting for fuel cell tech, hybrids are great and all but I don’t like the prospect of having to replace a battery that can run 2k to 5k every 5-7 years.
I drive a 2001 honda civic, I get on average 37MPG and this is with driving average 70mph on freeway, stop and go and fast acceleration and stopping.
Would I buy a hybrid car, maybe if it wasn’t much higher then a gas car, plus if replacing the batteries didn’t cost so much, then again if gas hits 4-5 bucks a gallon (Which it will) it would most likely be worth it.
Fuel cell is what I want, its coming out, its all about the infrastructure, once that is in place I am sure we will find ways to make hydrogen so that is doest create a big CO2 imprint.