Six Reasons the Spurs Own Us
The Warriors may own the Mavs, but there’s another Texas team that owns us. Even during our finer moments of basketball, the current Warriors squad has looked awful against the Spurs. Their strengths seem to play directly to our weaknesses. Tonight’s game against San Antonio doesn’t count – and it likely won’t be with full strength rosters – but it’s as good a place as any to start talking about the soft underbelly of the Nellie-ball style we know and (most of us) love.
Some of the reasons San Antonio owns us are simple:
Tim Duncan – When he’s healthy, he’s as quick as our light guys and far stronger than anyone we can throw at him. He’s comfortable working with his back to the basket and swats away double teams like gnats. While Boozer over-powered us in the playoffs, Duncan’s domination is something greater. He beats us largely at our own game. He’s a big guy who is fast enough, smart enough, and versatile enough to counter whatever Nellie throws at him. He might not be the best player in the league anymore, but he’s certainly the hardest for the Warriors to handle.
Patience – The ugliest but most dangerous part of Pop’s system with the Spurs is their willingness to wait out defenses. While Parker and Ginobili will force the issue at times (with success often, since both are great going to the hole), the team as a whole is happy to pass the ball around for 22 seconds until they get a good look. It’s a system that relies upon solid passers, deep shooters, and a faith that a shot will materialize if you give the defense long enough to get jittery. The Warriors’ frantic style plays right into their hands. We run all over the place. They swing the ball back and forth. When someone finally misses a rotation, they know it before we do. Points usually follow, as do Warriors losses.
Perimeter speed – This is one area where we might actually have a better shot this year. Parker and Davis always enjoy squaring off against each other. Parker is faster, Davis is stronger. Parker goes to the hoop, Baron backs Parker down. The problem for the Warriors is that Parker’s drives usually result in lay-ups or dishes out the three point line for open shots. Baron’s post-up moves typically result in over-dribbling and produce turnovers as often as points. Given the systems of the two teams, I give a slight advantage to Parker in the match-up (although I’d still take Davis given the choice if I was starting a team, unless of course I was choosing a team of shameless whining floppers). At the off-guard, however, the Spurs had a huge advantage with Ginobili’s slippery speed compared to Richardson’s less than spry defensive coverage. When we switched over to Ellis, what we gained in speed we lost in height. Azuibuike, however, might be the answer this year. He brings strength, speed, and size to the perimeter. I haven’t watched Kelenna’s defense closely enough to know how good he is (or can be), but if he squares off against Manu Thursday night it should be a good early test.
When you get past these three areas, however, there are some deeper issues at play in the Spurs’ dominance of our fair franchise.
The pupil bests the master – Nelson and Popovich are, by reputation, best friends. Pop gained his NBA break under Nellie and hasn’t slowed down since. In terms of style, however, Pop’s system plays almost like a direct rejection of everything Nelson loves. When Nellie runs, Pop walks. The Warriors go small, the Spurs go big. Positions are a joke on the Warriors, but roles are written on stone tablets with the Spurs. Nellie loves to push the issue and see what happens, Pop runs an offense like clockworks and almost always knows what’s coming. They both bring cranky personalities to the job, but while Pop channels the military academy, Nelson exudes Maui. Nelson gained a lot of praise for out-coaching Avery during the playoffs. Whenever the Warriors lose to the Spurs, he should also catch flack for being shown up by a system designed directly in opposition to his own. These are brilliant basketball minds that know each others’ games in and out. It’s Pop, however, who seems to be able to turn that knowledge into wins. (Of course, that Duncan guy helps a bit as well.)
Refs favor big men – Forget what Shaq says. In my experience, when push comes to shove, warnings turn to whistles more often when you’re a big man on the block than when you’re a little guy going down the lane. I can’t demonstrate it with a Mark Cuban chart, but refs seem to operate under the assumption that when a little guy goes into the lane, he should expect to be hit. When a big man posts up a little guy, however, the little guy often isn’t allowed to return the favor. Grabbing and clawing almost always result in whistles in that case, as the often-undersized Warriors know too well. Duncan is a master at getting to the foul line and he seems to do it at will against the Warriors. Even lesser skilled bigs like Horry and Oberto seem to give us trouble. Until we get a power forward that actually looks and plays like a traditional power forward, it’s a problem we’re likely to have against the Spurs and the Jazz of the league.
The Spurs get dirty, we get technicals – Any debate as to whether the Spurs really are a dirty team should have been silenced against the Suns last year. They’re dirty and they’re damn good at it. Unfortunately, Baron and Jax play with a finely tuned sense of justice. When they get kicked by Bowen or elbowed by Ginobili, they squawk. And as is the habit in the NBA, it’s the retaliation, not the first strike, that gets the refs’ attention. Guys like Bowen and Horry are so good at what they do because they generate intensely distracting emotion for their opponents without succumbing to it themselves. Sure, the game would be better without these types of shenanigans, but they’re not likely to disappear anytime soon. And until then, the Spurs will keep winning.
Given these six issues, I’m shocked that the Warriors ever beat the Spurs. That said, I’ve had a creeping feeling ever since the Finals that the Spurs run may finally be over. The supporting cast is getting older, although they’ve restocked with some younger talent. The NBA should be paying closer attention to Bowen and Horry, although that didn’t stop them from bringing home more rings last year. The deciding factor for me, however, is Duncan’s health. He’s simply not the force he was a few years ago and seems to be accelerating on the downward slope. He’s still an All-NBA player, but he’s dominating fewer games for fewer minutes as the years progress. If he goes down to injury in the spring, there’s no way the Spurs survive the amazingly competitive West. As Warriors fans, we fret over the fate of our franchise riding on Davis’ shoulders. While we picked a particularly fragile beast of burden, we’re not alone in being one blown knee away from a lost season.
Seventh and maybe the most important reason- the refs always blow whistles in favor of superstar teams and against young players ie. half the warriors squad and past trouble makers ie. the other half of the dubs.
Hey Adam,
I’d take a preseason win over the Spurs for sure. The only time in the last two years the Warriors beat the Spurs was November 27 last year.
Baron and Ginobli were both out.
Parker has not been playing in the preseason so far but Duncan has. I really wish the game were televised because I’m curious as to how effective Croshere and co. will be against the premier 4/5 in the league… who is totally healthy again. Ginobli is supposedly better than ever, too.
Great Post, Adam, on why the Spurs have our “number”. I just read in the S.A. Newspaper that Ginobili is playing the point guard in camp and will probably do so tonight against the Warriors. Apparently Tony Parker has been doing weight room work and won’t scrimmage until Saturday. It would be nice to see the game on TV tonight, but I’m sure Nellie looks at it as just another scrimmage and chance to get the team tuned up for the season sans injuries.
No doubt, the Spurs have our number.
It is time for the teacher to listen to his pupil…IF the teacher wants to be a master.
Please, Adam. Pop has TD. W/o TD, Pop is just another NBA coach.
San Antonio’s transition defense is superb.
Let’s hope that Ginobili is a little sloppy out there tonight.
An interesting matchup would be KA against Ginobli. KA may be quick enough to stay with him and is stronger. I can’t imagine that JRich could do that last year.
We don’t have the right mix of big and small to beat the Jazzes and Spurses. Nelson likes small, but that only gets you so far.
Was the often horrible Charles Barkeley right? We’re just midgets (exciting ones yes, but one’s who get blown away by Big Ball).
Nelson is the crux of the issue. If he changes, and plays more of the bigs, especially Wright, we move forward. If he doesn’t, and we fail to get furhter than last year, or even fall back, then look for someone else — Chris Mullin himself? — to become the coach to take us to the promised land.
What if POB blossoms? In certain situations we might even see both AB and POB playing at the same time. I’m talking later in the season of course and assuming POB really comes out of his rookie “shell”. By the way, I don’t buy Barkley’s nonsense about “midgets”. That was for laughs. The Warriors were an amazing draw last year and Barkley just added to the fun. Nellie is not the second winningest coach in NBA history without having some pretty good knowledge of the game and what it takes to be at the top. He is so refreshingly honest (mixed with some BS to throw off the opposition). I loved it last year when he came into the interview room after a bad loss and said something like…”wow, that was a real ass kicking”. Not one to mince words and for certain he does have the respect/admiration of his players. Win or lose, Nellie is great fun to watch!
I much prefer watching Nellie ball, as it is far more entertaining, but there is no denying that the Spurs are an all-time great team. Everyone thought they were on the downward slope at the beginning of last season too and it did not happen. Once Duncan is done, sure, but don’t believe it until you see it. I would say the Suns are in more decline than the Spurs are and will see a drop-off this year. San antonio is the deepest team in the league. We now are deep at our kind of basketball, extending a bench of high-speed, high-energy players, but I still see the Spurs as being dominant and turning it on full blast in February or March next year. They are really the only team in the league I don’t believe that we can beat in a series.
The Suns has a small starting 5. Amare is 6′10 and Marion is 6′7 at the PF spot but Marion is a good rebounder for his size. We don’t have a guy like Marion. Thats why Nellie is screaming/hoping that Harrington can rebound better or Mully will have to find an alternative. Barnes and MP are too incosistent. The W’s needs another rebounder next to Biedrins then the w’s will be okay.
Here’s another thought I had with all of this Spurs talk. Wasn’t MP supposed to step it up on D? Can he still? It would be nice if he could morph into Bruce Bowen. You know, be a good enough shooter on the wing where defenses have to come out to guard him and to be such a nasty bitch of a defender that people dread playing against him; even if they score he’s changing their game because they are pissed off. There was talk of this briefly I believe. I think it is just a matter of keeping up energy and focus defensively. He definitely has the tools but I am not sure about the brains. We have a good shot of being even higher energy this year if our deeper bench has every player jumping out fresh and being intense. I hope we get nice surprises like this in the season…
Good breakdown, Adam.
San Antonio is solid. It’s hard to find a weakness in their game. But you made a good point about Kelenna and it could be a critical matchup.
On the other hand, one can only HOPE to slow down Duncan. He is just too good, too tall, too skilled, too smart and humble, …etc…etc. The Warriors and everyone else is just relegated to WAITING for him to get TOO OLD. Hopefully when that time comes, our young tall players will be ready to produce.
As it is right now, our best chance in a game is play good 24-second defense and to run, run and run some more, and hope that their 30-something year-old legs can’t keep pace. We’ve added new players to keep up this frenetic pace for the whole game, so we might have a better chance this year.
I say let the Spurs win and win badly. Use this game to experiment with different combinations. Rest the starters, play Marco at point, POB at center, AC at pf, SJax at sg and Barnes at sf. Foul TD often. Slow the game down to see how POB does in the block. For all this talk about the W’s running style, they just as often need to run the half-court set. A serious W challenge will only serve to give the Spurs experience with our style, allow Pop to scout better, provide them with a scare, and get them accustomed to our matchups.
Slimman–
Pietrus does have the physical tools but his body moves faster than his brain sometimes, leading to mistakes and silly fouls . He overcommits on plays and gets baited by heady players. He was a better defensive player when he first came in but has not really improved his game much. I’d love to see him more focused this year. We’ll see if the snub/reality check from free agency woke him up.
JanG,
Agree about experimentation mode tonight.
Give POB a lot of looks, try AC/BW/Lasme? on TD. Marco might log a lot minutes again, still trying to get his rhythm in this offense.
Hope we come out without injuries.
Waiting for Duncan to get old is a pretty weak strategy. Even though he is slowing down, he and Popovich are smart enough to save it for the playoffs, when his style of play works every year. Anything we do against the Spurs during the regular season, much less the preseason, should be taken with a big ol’ boulder of salt.
The difference in styles lies in the coaches’ respective reliance on their premier players.
Pop’s use of Duncan is an exhibition of moving a low-post piece throughout the key, generating looks for Tim, kickouts to the wings, or opening up seams for slashers like the Frog and Manu to exploit. Duncan’s ability as a passer takes this to another level. Being methodical means making the most out of developing a high percentage play, be it through execution or taking advantage of a defensive lapse.
Nellie has Diddy, so the focus has to come from the backcourt and our star’s ability to create. Fast break opps that prevent the other team’s defense from settling in in the half court means more points of attack for the dribble drive, be that taking it to the rack, the drive-and-kick, or the pull-up at the three (’cause somebody’s feelin’ it at the time). Because of this, there can’t be a reliance on a drawn out possession–rather, quick hits and constant movement in an attempt to minimize the opposing defense’s effectiveness.
There shouldn’t be an indictment of Nellie ball–the guy is just optimizing the use of the pieces he has at hand and exploiting the rule changes that have made NBA ball much more guard friendly (e.g. killing the hand-checking, zone defense, defensive 3 secs, etc.).
Think of it this way: with his personnel since the Shaq trade, does the triangle make any kind of sense for Jackson/the fakers to continue to run (i.e. bad hand 5s, PGs that can’t hit the open shot, etc.)?
Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t the passage of time work just as disastrously on Baron’s knees as on Duncan’s mobility?
During the days of the Baltimore Bullets, their dominant burly center named Wes Unseld is listed at 6′7″. Everyone who’d seen him in person as I did will tell you that Unseld is no taller than 6′5″. His power forward was the Big E who is 6′9″, their tallest in their first five.
The perinnial contender Milwaukee Bucks has always two big and tall guys playing at the same time. The coach was Don Nelson who coinned the term Twin Towers in basketball.
Nowadays, we have this Nelsons ’small ball’. A group of five small professional basketball players.
What a contrast.
Is ’small ball’ a manifestation of Nelsons frustration with his Twin Towers?
Adam, you could make this list 10 items long by adding Duncan a few more times!
The Spurs can be patient because they are so efficient in the half-court (Duncan). It should be no surprise that they had the 5th fewest turnovers last year. Considering their size, though, it may seem counter-intuitive that they were near the bottom of the league at offensive rebounding. Because they are so efficient, they can afford to play for one shot, and then get back on D. These 2 factors effectively defuse our fast break and force us to play their (half-court) game.
And what happens when they get back on D? They gave up the fewest ppg in the NBA (leading to the largest point differential). I think that Duncan fella might have something to do with that, too. We had way more steals and blocked shots than they did, but they don’t need to gamble. Once again, they just play smart, conservative basketball.
Popovich was 17-47 in his first (incomplete) season as the SA head coach. Then they drafted Duncan. They haven’t won less than 53 games in a full season since. Perhaps both guys coach based on the players they have. Maybe Popovich really is a better coach than Nelson. He’s certainly a luckier one. If he retires when Duncan does, we’ll know he’s a smarter one.
Do the Spurs play dirty? I don’t know, but they don’t need it to beat us so far. I’m going to interpret this point as “they have smart and crafty veterans who know how to play their roles”. When a team is successful year after year (the Duncan effect), they become a magnet for free agents. While people may not be thrilled with the Croshere and Hudson signings, it sure beats bringing D-league call-ups in for 10 day contracts and hoping to catch lightning in a bottle. I’m a big fan of Azubuike and I’m glad he’s ours, but the better teams don’t need to gamble with their roster spots. A couple more years in the playoffs, and some of the more sought after free agents may be calling us!
Yeah, the Spurs and the Jazz give us fits. But I agree we may be closing the gap. Baron is supposedly lighter on his feet now and may be able to stay in front of Parker better. I think you are right KA may play MG better. And while Duncan may be starting to show his age, our bigs, esp Andris, may be smarter and stronger than last year. (Andris played Duncan very well in that first home win against SA last year.)
In other words, there is hope for us yet.
“Good Enough Just Being Themselves” is the title of the CBS SPORTSLINE commentary in SI (online) under Team News (Warriors). A very optimistic view comparing the Suns and Warrior’s for the upcoming season.
Sorry off topic but how long has the AND1 Who Is Monta campaign been going? I saw one of their commercials yesterday for first time and was pretty surprised to find all the cool short videos of Monta and his family in Jackson on And1.com . Seems to have been all been shot over summer and is a side I hadnt seen of Ellis. The mississippi bullet is a cold vicious dunk monkey who dont mind tooting his own horn. LOL funny stuff. Hearing his family recount his 72 point game in HS was classic too(espicially all their firsthalf point totals).
Didn’t Pop fire Hill and go back to coaching because SA drafted Duncan? Could be wrong but I remember some flack about him taking the reigns at the most opportune time.
Kind of the coaching version of the Horry straight arm I guess.
Got to respect their discipline and success but already last year, in a fair series, PHX was the better team. I don’t think they can pull off something like that again.
Who knows though, they’re perennial for some very good reasons.
D ominating
u nderrated-arguably the best pf of all time
n o one this talented on the Dubs in the last 25 years
c lass act
a rare superstar
n ot dubbed the Big Fundamental for nothin’
Mano de Nada:
You are correct sir. Pop fired Hill after they got TD and in order to get TD, Pop intentionally tanked by sitting The Admiral several weeks that season. As I said, Pop is another NBA coach w/o TD.
just listened to the game on nba.com and the f***ing tool announcer had to point out at least 4 times that the warriors were playing their veterans against all rookies for SA. He even had the nerve to say that AZ is a veteran because he played half a season last year.
Man, I hate their smug arrogance. If they hadn’t cheated against PHX they would not have won the title. Boring ass team that is impossible to market cuz no one can stomach watching them for 4 quarters.
I wish LBJ would have stopped chewing his nails long enough to give Duncan a facial in the Finals.
Checked the box score and there was balanced scoring by the Dubs but the defense really wasn’t there.
Did anybody get to see the game?
Well the Warriors lost. Nice it means very little.
The only Warriors vets that played more than about 15mins were BD and AH. Genoboli? seemed to have played the entire game. Others Spurs were names I have heard,(maybe 2nd and 3rd year players?) and rookies I guess.
Nellie seemed to give nearly everone a chance to play. AH got 13 or 14 rebounds.
Only the real games will tell the story. I think Ab and Monta may be more important to this team than They are given credit for.
Markbiz,
Good points but which came first the chicken of the egg?
You say that Nelson plays uptempo because he has BD and Pops plays 1/2 court due to Duncan.
I think it’s more accurate to say Nellie is and always has been an uptempo coach, and he was brought in to specifically take advantage of the W’s quality smalls and BD. Nellie would probably bench Duncan if he had him as a young man (before he became a star) for not being able to fit into his style. Nellie isn’t fitting his sytem to the player. Nellie’s system happened to fit the player, which is why he was hired.
BTW, did anyone hear the Nelson interview. He said the only position the W’s are thin at is 5. I don’t know how he thinks we now have quality at 4. Is he thinking Croshere can get the job done? Swithcing AB to 4 and playing POB at center? BW? Harrington? I don’t see why he thinks we are set at 4. I think we’re relatively weak, this year, at both 4 & 5, and relatively strong at 2 & 3.
Post-game perspective:
Duncan didn’t play
Parker didn’t play
Popovich didn’t coach
the Warriors didn’t get technicals
The refs didn’t seem to prefer the Spurs
… and San Antonio still won.
So, dear bloggers, if the aforementioned 6 reasons didn’t apply, why did the Warriors lose against the Spurs’ rookies?
Are the Warriors a better team than the Spurs? No obviously. They don’t match up well with that team but if by chance the Mavs or Suns can do the Warriors a favor and take care of the Spurs in Post Season…all the Warriors need to do is be at the dance and they can tango wit anybody (except Spurs and I hate to say it but Utah)…damn
Chuckie– agree about weak at 4. Biedrins and O’Bryant are all I want to see at 5 and I’m sort of fed up with Nellie’s approach to both.
As for strong at 2/3 [4ish]… Belinelli, Pietrus, Barnes, Harrington, and Jackson have been really inconsistent throughout their careers, not just this preseason, and none instill playoff-return confidence in me.
Dude is losing his marbles or spinning serious BS. His credit may have run out around the league, though.