Save the Sonics, and Your Team
The saddest sight at the Arena Wednesday night will not be the end of the Warriors good-but-not-good-enough season. Those in attendance will likely witness the final act of the greatest NBA scandal in recent memory: not Donaghy, not the Brawl at the Palace, not even the Fisher Flop, but the death of the Seattle Supersonics.
NBA basketball is a business. It’s the first and last thing you need to know about what goes down in the League. That said, just because something is a business doesn’t mean that stripped-naked greed is a good strategy. The Warriors’ success over the past few years demonstrates the potent money making ability of a successful team when mixed with a rabid, die-hard fan base. I don’t mean to suggest that the Warriors’ thrilling play isn’t the single largest factor behind the team’s success, but the dedication of their fans elevated an exciting team to the toast of the NBA. Warriors fans stuck with this team through the dark ages because the franchise was part of us, a component of our community and daily lives. This type of loyalty is based on stability. You go through the rough patches because you have faith that a good stretch will be around the corner. You keep buying tickets, watching games, caring, because there’s an unspoken bond between lifelong fans and their team: the fans will be there, through good and bad, but so will the team.
What’s going on in Seattle at the moment smashes the foundation of that relationship. The push to move the Sonics isn’t a post-expansion adjustment, like we saw in Charlotte or Vancouver. It’s a team with 40+ years of history being torn from a city that still wants it. The city of Seattle had the audacity to hold firm on arena demands, foolishly thinking that maybe public money could be spent on better causes than subsidizing an arena for a franchise ownership group that has access to hundreds of millions of dollars on its own. I’m as big a fan as anyone of my team, but even I pay for rent and food before Warriors tickets. Why should the city of Seattle be any different. In retaliation for the city’s sensible position, the ownership group decided to go nuclear and move the team. This week, emails revealed that the move was likely in the cards all along, despite promises to negotiate in good faith to keep the team in Seattle. NBA owners will bless the entire ugly affair Friday at the Board of Governors meeting.
The new owners of the Sonics, so long as they honor their contractual obligations, are free to do as they like with their team. I’m not writing this blog to question whether they can move the team. The bigger question for me is whether the rest of the NBA should let them move the team. By endorsing the tactics used in Seattle the NBA owners are essentially saying that no team is safe. If arena negotiations break down or some other city throws out a tax break, there’s nothing wrong with packing up and moving at the drop of a hat. This approach treats owning an NBA franchise like running a retail store: find the best lease, haggle with the building owner to throw in a fresh coat of paint, and always keep your eye peeled for a better bargain.
The downside to this approach is that it makes fans, not only in Seattle but around the NBA, doubt the loyalty that separates a fan from a customer. If I thought the Warriors were on their way out of Oakland at the drop of a hat, the years of money sunk into tickets (and hours poured into this blog) suddenly become more difficult choices. The team would no longer be such a part of the fabric of my daily life. A transitory team becomes like the circus or ice-capades. You go while they’re in town, have a fun time, and forget about them when they leave. If the show gets panned, you skip it all together. You don’t wear a Ringling Bros sweatshirt or pay for special cable packages to watch Disney on Ice in other cities. Sports teams are just entertainment, but owners have done a good job so far of convincing us that there’s more to it. By endorsing affairs like the Sonics’ departure, they risk bursting that bubble — not just for Sonics’ fans, but for the league as a whole.
I have no expectation that the owners will vote “no” on the Sonics’ move. The other owners want to leave open the same movement options for themselves. And they don’t think that their fanbases care one way or another how they vote on the Sonics. Fans — of the Sonics and the NBA — can’t do much to change the course of events already laid in place, but they can speak out to let the owners know that the final assumption is wrong. The Sonics today. Tomorrow, your team.
The downside of making athletic competition into a big entertainment business. Very little about the modern world favors loyalty over money, sadly.
Thanks Adam
JP posted the links to all the messy e-mails on this deal (3-4 threads ago). Although the NBA will likely approve the deal, Stern has to feel that the new ownership crossed a “verbal contract” line, to help make what happened seem like it was all against their wishes.
Seattle is making a mistake (finding somehow to get a deal done). They have such a nice football, Baseball set up, its a shame the could not land the trifecta.
MDN
True, but when you look at what a place like Pac Bell can do for transforming a scarred portion of a city sometimes the big entertainment $$ bring some positives. Although there are probably some old South of Market tenants who aren’t happy with “progress”.
Adam,
So how come the high rollers in Seattle are not enraged ? Oh I see, Bill Gates is not a sports fan…Could you refresh my memory on the following relocations : Cincinatti Royals to Kansas City-Omaha Kings to Sacramento Kings, New Orleans Jazz to Utah Jazz, Baltimore Bullets to Washington Wizards, Vancouver Grizzlies to Memphis, New York Nets to New Jersey, San Diego Clippers to Los Angeles…. Thanks.
“The other owners want to leave open the same movement options for themselves.”
Exactly. It’s an owners vote so if they veto the move, they would be basically be giving up a big bargaining chip if they were ever in negotiations for their own new stadium. So I have little expectations regarding the owner’s vote coming up. They are rich, successful businessmen who got where they were by putting the dollar almighty ahead of all else. Don’t expect them to grow a sense of honor and loyalty overnight.
Seattle’s only hope now is that Howard Schultz, who is hopefully being sincere about his claim against the current ownership group, catches Bennet on a technicality regarding the “good faith” effort to keep the Sonica in Seattle. It’s a long shot, especially since Stern has basically spat on the city of Seattle, but stranger things have happened.
PBOB, in my mind the extreme level of public commitment to private sporting interests is just another way corporations privatize public funds, with very little actual benefit to most people.
Look at the story behind the Nationals new stadium, for example; DC is closing some 20+ schools at the same time it’s financed the new facilities for hundreds of millions of dollars. As a society it shows a poor set of priorities.
And for whatever reasons, all those subsidies never seem to make it to the beer prices.
Just posted this on the last thread, but because it may have run out here it is again:
I sense a change in the mood of posters on this blog, good. The true Warrior fan picks the team apart, admits the problems, suggests solutions, and offers data-based criticism when warranted.
Some choose to insult the poster rather than respond smartly to the criticism. That’s the weakest position of all. Others hang on to the Warriors/Nelson and buy into the We Believe marketing scheme with no second thoughts. Their comments are always predictable and uninteresting. And of course some posters obviously just like to play games by chatting like adolescents with others in a mindless MySpace type exercise. We learn their names and skip over their posts.
Adam’s done a great job kicking off the discussions, but I do worry about his loyalties sometimes. I hope that the access the Warriors give him hasn’t shaped the comments he makes too much, especially given that Adam rarely comes down hard on what’s going on, no matter how indefensible.
Nice diversion form Baron and Nellie being two year-olds: The Sonics.
And the “thrilling play” became stale, predictable slop about 30 games ago, Adam.
Homeritis strikes all, apparently.
As a basketball fan, I hate seeing the Sonics leaving Seattle, and I empathize the the fans’ anger towards their current ownership.
However, as a non-biased citizen, I can’t find anything wrong with what the Sonics owners do, as long as they fulfill their contractual obligations.
The crux of the issue lies in the erroneous assumption that since a sports team owes its existence and viability to the host city, its owners should manage it as the fans wish.
In the Sonics’ case, when the city voted against continuous financial support, the owners have the legal and moral right to move the team to a more supportive city.
Is it fair? Yes. Do I like it? No.
Compare that with Boeing leaving Seattle in 2001. The economical damage to the city was much worse than now. Thousands of people in Seattle lost their jobs.
On the other hand, I don’t think that the city SHOULD put money into a privately-owned team. If it’s a private business, why should tax-payers carry the load?
Here’s a proposed solution:
The city will financially support the team in exchange for part ownership. ie, investing in the team. That will include profit-sharing, and power in decision-making processes.
In addition to solving the current issues, this move will also give fans a real sense of ownership. I foresee future arrangements, when the fans can even vote on personnel, coaching, and trades decisions.
This will engage the fans much more with the team, the support for the team will be overwhelming, and its performance, both financially and on-the-court will skyrocket.
Passion:
If the city government gets into sports, you
get great ideas like the infamous Raiders PSLs,
which have turned into a financial disaster for
the City of Oakland & Alameda County. Government
screws up enough stuff, leave them out of sports
management please. Of course the only one looking
good after the PSL fiasco is me.
To paraphrase Iverson: “Seattle? [repeat ten times]” TNT has pulled the plug on broadcasting the Warriors last game of the season. I do not get to look at my team one last time and say my thank yous and goodbyes. “Seattle?”
The best sports ownership model is based on the Green Bay Packers. They are organized as a corporation with thousands of Wisconsin shareholders. Each owns a very minor portion of stock. It is no accident that it is probably the best supported team in sports, in spite of having the smallest fan base to draw on. Will they are ever move? Not likely. This form of ownership aligns the interest of the ownership with the fans. Rich community boosters have a way of supporting community interests without dominating them. If they need to sell stock because of personal reasons, there is an orderly method of selling their positions. Little guys can own a couple of shares and feel that much closer to the team. With widespread ownership, the city going to work closely with the organization.
Unfortunately I believe other franchises aren’t allowed to organize in this fashion, but the Packers are given an exception. Maybe someone with more knowledge about this could clarify the situation. Congress could do the entire sporting community a big favor by forcing leagues to allow this type of ownership.
This allows raising money for facilities on a more rational basis. It makes a whole lot more sense than buying seating rights etc. The general public is not forced to support a private enterprise. It also keeps the public out of any control, and as we in the Bay Area are constantly reminded, the local politicians couldn’t run a lemonade stand competently even given free lemonade. Exhibit A- the Raiders negotiations over the years.
So why do taxpayers have to foot the bill for a private for-profit business? Whether that is in Seattle or Sacramento, as a taxpayer, I shouldn’t have to pay additional taxes to keep a private business in the area.
Thanks for the support from a sonics fan.
as far as statements that we don’t support the sonics due to not building them a new building… this region has gone through, during a 10 year period, of approving almost a 700 million dollars worth in stadiums with the Seahawks and mariners. Both using the same threat we have all seen.
And when howard came knocking, his tact, along with another threat was not very welcomed. And when clay came along, his ‘proposal’ was just preposterous to being taken realistically. Business leaders reached out to clay, the mayor’s door was always open for clay, yet clays ‘best effort’ was his ONLY effort.
I understand pro sports is a business first and foremost. But whats make it a successful business is fan loyalty. You keep moving teams around and then you have to ask yourself, why would I care if they are going to move and have no loyalty to me as a customer.
There were alot of people to blame in this whole process, but the only ones getting burned in this billionaires game is us, the fans.
Thanks for helping the movement. Could you add this to your article?
“As a form of protest, we vow to boycott any game next season in which
the Oklahoma City Sonics play, whether it be in our arena or watching
it on television.”
Also, please tell all interested people to e-mail/message that to any
media source they can think of. It all started with some Heat fans at
The South Florida Fan:
http://thesouthfloridafan.blogspot.com/2008/04/how-to-help-seattle-keep-their-sonics.html
It’s on us (the non-Sonics fans) to make this happen.
#8
Attacking Adam over a throw away, subjective line is a new low CC. The point of this post was to try to put ourselves in the shoes of Seattle fans. By nitpicking a line that has nothing to do with the point of the actual post is petty.
Mr. Online,
Thanks for re-posting that junk. I love when dudes feel they define what it is to be a “true fan”. Apparently a “true fan” is a dour, holier-than-thou prognosticator of doom. That may be appropriate for, say NPR, but not so much the NBA. The “We Believe” thing does smack of marketers and ad men and they were capitalizing on the sense of community Warriors fans exude. Again, welcome to David Stern’s NBA and capitalism in general. You can criticize it for being commercial, fine, but at this point that is like complaining about traffic. Don’t like it, get a bike. Move to China, I’m serious. The NBA is a hype factory, but at least they manage to assemble the best ballers on Earth and they have to pay them accordingly, so there is a trade off.
Mr. Laudrisen, esq. is a lawyer, gents. Best of luck getting him to specuhate and throw dudes under the bus without the benefit of facts and perspective.
Save the Sonics
I stand by what I wrote.
Sonics have a billionaire mounting lawsuits for them now but the Warriors have a potential core shakeup on the horizon and some horrendous play to answer for post-All Star Break.
Syndication can wait, Adam, give us the scoop on the hometown Uglies!
In fairness to Cohan, the Davis/Nelson story is potentially a significant one. I’m just waiting until after tonight’s game before saying anything else. At this point, I don’t really have much more to say than I wrote on the last post.
As for me not complaining about poor play since the All-Star break, do I really need to play that broken record every post or do people know where I stand by now? I wrote this on January 19, 2008, have repeated it many times since, and I’m sorry to see that it came true:
“By my watch, the Warriors — assuming the role of the drunk Bulls fan — are somewhere near the final minute of the second quarter. We’ve had success over-indulging in minutes for Baron and Jackson. We get wins, everyone feels good in the moment, and the crowd keeps cheering. The second half of the NBA season, however, is when things get serious. When the best teams in the brutal West start playing for keeps, it’s unclear whether we’ll still be able to stand under our own power. You can’t keep pounding 45 minute games one after another without dealing with the hangover. When the reckoning comes — and it will — I worry about who on this team will shoulder the blame. Unless something changes, I fear we’ll be left staggering to the exits from the top 8 in the West before the final games of the season.”
http://www.mercextra.com/blogs/warriors/2008/01/19/last-call-warriors-119-bulls-111/
I don’t mean to play the “I told you so” game. I’m just not sure where this line of argumentation is coming from that I’ve gone soft on the Warriors.
As for the homer charge: guilty.
Passion Man, like many other people around the country, you are not getting the whole story. Let me enlighten you to the “offer” Bennett made the city. This was the only option he would listen to, and the Key Arena was deemed unusable by him, even with a remodel. He proposed that taxpayers build a $500 million dollar arena 20 miles outside of Seattle where he got to keep all the profits, and his contribution would be from selling the naming rights to our public facility. His offer did not pay off the remaining debt on Key Arena from the last remodel 10 years ago, and it left Key Arena without an anchor tenant. To put it in perspective for you, I lived in the Bay Area for a while, in fact I was born in the City. So, take Oracle, leave it empty and still loaded with debt, and than pay $500 million for the Warriors new home in Pleasanton. Now Oakland doesn’t get tax from the concessions and you have to fight the traffic to get there. Also, Cohen gets to keep all the revenue from concessions, tickets and parking. This is the part that Stern never talks about, that this was the “good faith” effort Bennett made, and the only option he would accept. And I’m not trying to be a troll, I’m just trying to educate everyone about what is happening so they can make an informed opinion. Bennett and Stern have done a good job tainting everyones view of what’s really going on. Good luck next season, see you guys in Seattle!
Wish the world could see tonight’s game and have anything relevant to say about it. But the play is SO BAD and the team SO DONE that the NBA pulled the plug on us before the Phoenix Diddy-Flop outcome was even known.
Seattle might just get to keep its product– it’s a valuable one that figures to get even better this year. Presti is worth investing in, Mullin is not. OKC can get a team if it wants one.
But the Warriors are in crapland USa now and if I’m going to wax hyperbolic about something, it’s that.
Excuses, excuses- the team is slouching off into the corner this offseason and all PR bodies are on board.
Good one Adam. See my last post, #169 on the previous thread, for my take.
#7
James Online,
In other words, anyone who doesn’t agree with my way of thinking/doing things is inferior.
And thanks for taking the time to give a rip about my team! It’s nice to see a nationwide outpouring of support for the Supes.
Cohan, JamesOnline, Tact, and others have called to fire Nelson. There are multiple arguments but they boil down to; Nelson is not the coach to take a team (or this team) to a championship.
Who is?
Let’s start by only considering coaches that are realistically available, so Riley, Popovich and Jackson are out. Tomjanovich and Daly aren’t coming out of retirement either. Who is the guy, the coach to take the Warriors to a championship?
Larry Brown?
Jeff Van Gundy?
Scott Skiles?
Del Harris?
Phil Johnson?
Tim Grgurich?
Hank Egan?
Terry Porter?
Mario Ellie?
Keith Smart? He is a coach in training. Avery was/is a better coaching prospect than Smart, inherited a team ready to contend for a championship from day one and he is still learning what it takes to get his team to a championship. Does anyone expect better from Smart? Choosing Smart means…*rebuilding*.
Is everyone ready to give up on the playoffs for next year and build around the young talent of (give or take) Ellis, Belinelli, Azubuike, Wright, Biedrins and Perovic?
Justpuked, PJ will probably be available after tonight if you would like him back!
Passion Man says:
“However, as a non-biased citizen, I can’t find anything wrong with what the Sonics owners do, as long as they fulfill their contractual obligations.”
That’s just it. The owners are attempting to get out of their contractual obligations. The team signed a lease to play at Key Arena thru 2010. But the current owners want to begin playing in OKC next season.
Further, a side agreement to the sale from previous owner Schultz to current owner Bennett stated that Bennett must make his “best effort” to keep the team in Seattle. The emails between Bennett and miority owners released in the last week seem to indicate that Bennett did not use his best efforts.
And, not that relevant to the main point, but I have to nitpick:
“Compare that with Boeing leaving Seattle in 2001. The economical damage to the city was much worse than now. Thousands of people in Seattle lost their jobs.”
Boeing only moved its HQ from Seattle in 2001. The move affected only 500 jobs, not thousands.
http://money.cnn.com/2001/03/21/companies/boeing/
#7- This is an entertainment blog, not a business conference. Sometimes a little levity and absurdity is in order.
MDN (#6)
I agree with your point on the public fund issue. But, I used the Pac Bell analogy which relied heavily on private funds. As always there were some public funds, but in my uneducated opinion, whatever SF put in has returned 10 fold in additional tax revenue, etc which directly benefits the schools etc.
My point - the right formula can be great for both ends of the spectrum. The wrong formula - disaster.
Can you imagine if the Sonics get the #2 pick and draft Derrick Rose. Then they would have a young core of Rose, Durant, Green, and Collison(underrated) ….only to be moved to OKC! Ouch, that hurts just thinking about it. That would be equivilent if not worse than the Warriors being shipped to Nantucket prior to last year’s robbery trade and miraculous playoff run. Just a brutal thing to happen to a city and a franchise with a storied history similar to the Warriors. All you Seattle fans chiming in, I feel your pain brothers, Save the Sonics!
#19
Adam,
Clever way to get us on the edge of our seats for your comments after tonight’s game. Enquiring minds. I’ll be reading.
For many reasons Mark Jackson would be a superb coach for the Warriors, but is likely headed to the Knicks. Keith Smart is Nellie’s protege, more of the same but without the tummy. Mullin’s job, not ours, is to find the right guy. He’ll be faced with that sooner or not much later no matter what. No need to recycle the waste. Find a gem.
#20. Right on! All this “Free Market” blathering is just that. Its the same thing that is going on all over this country- scams, newsspeak and blackmail. Bennet wants to move the team to his home town. He makes a bad faith offer and then walks out in a huff, with Stern holding a hanky to dry his crocodile tears.
Sport is big money and prestige for the “good old boys’ and the rich. To hell with the fans. These guys haven’t given one thought to the fans and they never will. Its all about them and their money and power.
As far as having cities getting into partnerships with these people, that is ridiculous. It may work in Green Bay, but it won’t work in 99 out of 100 places. They want all the control and the “perks” they get from our sad fixation with what sports have become. Here in the Bay Area, as in other places, people are getting much less willing to support, as one poster has so aptly put, “private for profit businesses” with public money.
I am sure not going to give them any more of my money than it takes to get a cable channel if i can help it. But in exchange for that, I have to be willing to lose my team at any time. Ok, I can do that, and i do.
Lets see, what do we need more for our taxes, schools and teachers or overpaid sports “heroes?” Maybe I could get a few things for my business? Oh, I see, I’m not providing a public service like basketball is. OK, sorry I asked.
Times have changed. A lot of people seem to like the “Cult of the Bottom Line,” as I call it, but beware of losing your “moral and legal rights,” as Passion Man says, if you believe in money as a social system.
These things do need to be taken each on their own merit, though. The arena in San Jose would probably not be built today because of public pressure against the type of funding they used. I live fairly close to the Tank and it has been a boost to the community here, with a large variety of events as well as the Sharks. The whole neighborhood has cleaned up quite a bit, and businesses downtown benefit from it so tax money is generated. I don’t see that happening in Seattle the way it is laid out, though.
#25
Got news for you, WE ARE REBUILDING! Hello. We started last year and we are not done.
Give up on the playoffs? Gee, why would we want to do that? Given a choice of making it to the playoffs or building a team that could win in the playoffs, I would take the latter, but does everyone on here always give two possibilities that aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive?
We should be pointing for 2-3 years from now when all our players are reaching their primes and we have been developing a system that works and have been practicing it like the other teams at the top.
If we make it to the playoffs in the meantime, great. We probably will if we are doing the right things. More small ball and unimaginative and stubborn coaching? No thanks, just to make the playoffs. Set your goals higher.
Tired, Key Arena is in one of the upscale neighborhoods in Seattle. And forgive me if you all knew this, but the Key is next door to the Space Needle and on the grounds of the Seattle Center. Bennett didn’t care about that and wanted to move the team to Renton, the Livermore of the Northwest. Remodeling the Key wouldn’t do much to upgrade the neighborhood, but it would make it a nicer venue inside.
Tim, I’m with you. Thanks for the info. Every situation is a little different.
#32. Good one. Down with specious and sophistic arguments.
Good discussion, everyone. This Sonics move is indicative of a trend in sports and the economy in general. it’s called “Corporate Socialism,” where basically the wealthiest Americans take as much money from the government as they can get, and leave the taxpayers to pay for it.
This Sonics deal would not only require the City to pay for a new site while leaving the old one to hang (bringing urban decay and blight nearby businesses), but it would most likely include something called an “incremental tax franchise” (or something like that), an agreement in which all the sales tax which would normally go to the city, state, etc… goes back to the corporation to pay off building costs.
This takes further money away from schools, roads, and other public projects. Basically, the team would like to stick it to Seattle twice. “buy me the land, subsidize most of the building costs, and pay me for the building costs that come out of my pocket.”
This is a raw deal for every citizen but the owners because all this comes out of our pockets. if you don’t think so, think about that next time you hear about crappy education, high crime, or drive through a pothole in the street.
Of course, i’ll still go to games.
West Seattle Tim
Thanks for the info. If you are from here do you remember when they announced the Giants were headed to Tampa Bay? Keep the faith. Dare I say “Believe”.
Nice recall, PBob. The Giants went from packing for Tampa to signing Bonds and rejuvenating the franchise in a matter of weeks. Let’s hope someone swoops in, pulls a Peter Magowan and puts a stop to this reverse/bizarro-Grapes of Wrath nonsense.
#32
It’s real sophisticated to comment on a man’s stomach. Impressive. P-)
Word on the streets:
1. Baron and Nellie both expected back. Sorry haters.
2. Monta and Beidrins will be signed regardless of money.
3. Bench will remain in rotation.
4. Baron will discuss benching after the game tonight.
Correction to # 3. Rookies will become part of rotation.
Tired,
“As far as having cities getting into partnerships with these people, that is ridiculous. It may work in Green Bay, but it won’t work in 99 out of 100 places”.
Please reread #12 again.
I said, “The best sports ownership model is based on the Green Bay Packers. They are organized as a corporation with thousands of Wisconsin shareholders. Each owns a very minor portion of stock.”
The last thing I would want is governmental ownership. Individuals own small amounts or shares in a corporate structure. Thus people from the area own the team and its facilities. There is no danger of the team moving. The shares are usually handed down from parents to children. You have the benefits of community ownership, but not public ownership or funding, And you are not subject to the vagarities of an ownership controlled by a small group of owners solely motivated by the financial aspects of ownership. If they have huge personal sums invested, it is not unreasonable for them to be primarily focused on the bottom line.
Auggie:
#4
“So how come the high rollers in Seattle are not enraged ? Oh I see, Bill Gates is not a sports fan”
The CEO of MicroSoft — Steve Ballmer, the CEO of Costco — Stigler and two other lower profile execs of Seattle Corps have teamed together and pledged hundreds of millions of dollars toward keeping the Sonics in Seattle. The primary road block is current Sonics ownership.
James
I understand your POV above (#7), but what you are professing is a bit out of balance.
“The TRUE Warrior fan picks the team apart, admits the problems, suggests solutions, and offers data-based criticism when warranted.”
What you are saying is that only through criticizing the Warriors are we true fans.
The problem is what do we each use as a standard to measure exceptible criticism?
Some compare this coach and this team against the “champion Spur teams” and others use the 2005 Warrior team. Its all about each of us finding what is an exceptable baseline for our expectations and how those expectations should progress. And thats the fun part.
Often times us “untrue fans” (thanks for the personal shot , btw
) feel a sense of gratefulness when others profess “Fire the Coach”. It’s the beauty of differing POV’s. Embrace it.
One last point, if you notice the very extreme views presented on this site are almost always criticisms, not praise. Its easiest to criticize. No one is openly stating Nelson is an unerring genious etc. Its best when we keep the discussion out of the extremes.
And please don’t put us “untrue fans” into the other extreme POV that the W’s, DN and Mullin are all infallible. They are not. Like JP said “fire the coach” is good criticism when there is a better one to hire.
Wyatt
Like the reverse “Grapes of Wrath” reference. Very nice.
Irony. When you look at the Tampa stadium now, I think you could make the argument that Candlestick was better (probably not but close).
And now Seattle to Oklahoma. Yikes. Each player will turn in their 5000sf houses for 50,000 sf homes.
pbob20, I do remember that. And than I moved to Seattle and dealt with the Mariners moving to Tampa Bay! And than the Seahawks to LA. And now this. MAybe our new MLS team will petition to move next year before they even start.
West Seattle Tim, Congratulations on your new MLS team.
Speaking of team moving and new team, I am not sure whether to root for my new Quakes or the Dynamo when they are facing each other
“Down with specious and sophistic arguments”
You’ve treated this blog to impassioned and reasoned arguments outlining the critical issues that burden this franchise. Kudos. At the heart of almost all of it is the very leadership and future direction of the team. Apologies to Chris Mullin and Baron Davis; Don Nelson is the singular personality dominating this franchise. It’s unbecoming to hypocritically denigrate the opinions of your fellow bloggers if you’re unimaginative enough to cogitate solutions nor participate in the endeavor.
“The true Warrior fan picks the team apart, admits the problems, suggests solutions, and offers data-based criticism when warranted.”
Mark Jackson is a creative pick.
“Mullin’s job, not ours, is to find the right guy.”
One could easily argue:
Nelson’s job, not ours is to strategize.
Adam’s role, not ours is to opinion.
..just saying.
This is an open forum for the exchange of ideas, opinions etc. We welcome even the elitists.
Cheers.
34 Tired
Agree that the team should look 2-3 years down the road
while still competing for the play-offs.
Small ball or slow ball is not the issue:
Fast ball is and is the wave of the future.
You need to be able to play half court, but
why get all these great athletes and walk the
ball up? The Dubs need more size to defend the
paint and board, but they still need to run and
get easy baskets. Like the Mavs after Nellie left
almost won in 2006.
JustPuked
Love your name, by the way.
Nice try with the language. i get it. : ) Really, you and I are on the same page and I am not denigrating anyone, just asking for clear arguments that don’t involve absurd choices- and having a little fun at the same time.
Absurd Choices: Monty or Nellie. SJ or Dunleavy. AB or Fuller. 20 wins or 40+ wins. Playoffs or no playoffs. Del Harris or Nellie. etc. etc. etc.
I have also given plenty of solutions, adjustments and reasons why certain things just don’t work and why other things do. Many of us have.
I think you know that. Pretty good riff though.
Holy Toledo! We agree!
Options OPen knows zerO.
#45
I stand corrected. Sorry for the oversight. BTW, what kind of sport interests Bill Gates ? he could have bought the Sonics, keep it in Seattle, and have a friendly rivalry with Paul Allen’s Blazers.
I expect to injunctions and appeals will keep the Sonics in Seattle for at least two more seasons. Not sure how the suit against Bennett’s “good faith” will go.
http://www.seattlesupersellouts.com
Adam,
Didn’t Al Davis go to court and settle the dispute once and for all as to whether owners have a right to move their teams, regardless if other owners oppose the move?
I don’t think legally the other owners could stop Seattle from moving even if they wanted to. And as you said, they probably don’t want to deny themselves that same option.
I am very interested to hear the explanation of why BD sat the 2nd half. They’ve had a couple days to work on the story. No doubt what they say, and what really happened, will be two completely different things. We will probably never know what really happened.
Adam,
This is one of your best written pieces and I really appreciate its tone and sentiment.
Ya know, we’re all just children here. I mean we spend hours typing away about our favorite sports team. Totally frivolous. We all know it. I’m sure that we all sometimes feel guilty when we’ve frittered away a couple of hours reading, replying, reloading the page, rereading, and re-replying. (I promised Bucky I wouldn’t speak for all of us again, but I did it again.) You all know the routine. Nothin’ wrong with it though. As I said a few months back, we’re just raising our perpetual inner child. It’s healthy, it’s fun, it’s stimulating.
When a sports team ups and leaves a community, it takes something away from folks. The children pay the most, but the adults pay too, especially the whacked ones like us. So in essence, every professional sports team metaphorically follows the Green Bay Packers community shareholder model that Grapeguy posted about. Don’t they? I mean, we all invest a tremendous amount of emotional stock into our teams, not to mention the financial investments we make in buying tickets, paying for cable, buying merchandise, etc. Our teams become a part of us and they are interlocked with our psyche and, as I said, our inner child. So when these owners pack up “their” team and leave town, they are stealing something from the people in the community. Though this may sound a bit over the top, there really is a moral aspect to this. Don’t owners have an obligation to the fans of their teams, even if it is a paternalistic obligation. MDN is pretty close to the mark when he says, “The downside of making athletic competition into a big entertainment business. Very little about the modern world favors loyalty over money, sadly.” (Actually Mano, the modern world is no different than the Ancient world in that respect.) Professional sports will always be linked to the almighty dollar for the very same reason that they are linked to our hearts and minds. Sports fans in Seattle don’t deserve to be pillaged and manipulated by a greedy owner. Its wrong.
As Passion Man says, business owners have a right to relocate whether we like it or not. True. They have that right. But that doesn’t make it the right thing to do. If the community supports the team, the team is obligated to reciprocate. I believe in the free market and all of its benefits. Go Milton Friedman! But let’s not shirk our responsibilities to our emotional shareholders.
Mullin with the big talk today.
Tool.
He’s screwed everything up to this point, he’ll screw it all up all over again.
Keep sending me your money, suckers!!!
Did you get that MANDATORY deposit down on season tickets when you reserved your playoff tickets for this year?!
That’s what I thought.
It’s a business and I WIN.
The strange part being CC is the fan that he likes to heckle most (ie the well paying customer).
Are you catching the action tonight, Mano de No-Clue?
We’re getting SHELLED– by a team that may get the first overall pick and will with near certainty orchestrate a swap for Rose somehow sine Presti is very smart (Mullin is very dumb)– in the home season finale after getting yanked off of TV.
Oh, now Baron’s out. Here comes the comeback!
You guys are really pathetic, going orgasmic over an idiotic article that has it all wrong, just because it beats the same idiotic dead horse that you’ve been beating all year. POB and BW are gods, and Nellie is a bad, bad man. A bad, bad, mean man. A hater of young men. Can’t develop players.
You’re so right. He did a lousy job of developing Monta Ellis and Andris Biedrins. Nash and Nowitzki. Josh Howard, Devin Harris and Marquis Daniels. Mullin, Hardaway and Richmond. Sprewell, Elie, Marciulonis. You guys are just a non-ending joke with this. Seriously.
Jannie Hu has the real story at sfgate. Why don’t u guys go orgasmic over that link? I’ll tell you why: because its the real story, dealing with reality, and not your ridiculous fantasies of how POB and BW would play if we were living in fairy-land, where there are no big bad men in the low post.
The real story: Nellie sat BD in a meaningless game. The season is over, and it was time to get the kids in the game. Nellie and BD are fine. In fact, Mullin guarantees BD will be back next year. BD’s agent guarantees BD will be back next year (He’d be an idiot to opt out of $17 million). If any of you are interested in escaping from never-never land, read the real story.
Mano: this team is on the verge of a title run. Without BD there is no title run. ME is an emerging star. But he is nowhere near having BD’s presence at either end of the court.
When the BD/Jax era is over this team will still be good, and still be fun to watch. But it will be rebuilding.
The time is NOW. THIS is our window.
If the Warriors finish THREE GAMES OUT OF THE EIGHT SEED by losing tonight as a rich, mailed-in reward to their loyal “best fans in the league,”
the Homers can shove it.
Three game sout sucks if you’re talking about being worth a damn in this league. Three games out ain’t close. Three games out, ladies and gentlemen, is two games further out of the playoffs than Miracle Mike and the Pacers finished.
Who would have thought that the Pacers would finish closer to the playoffs than the Warriors and that the ex-Warriors returning to the playoffs would be Adonal Foyle, Devin Brown, and Derek Fisher?
Oh. Me.
PS, Warriors finally playing like they give a damn about their fans.
Chris Cohan = Andrew Dice Clay
Both incredibly offensive with nothing to add to society.
hickory dickery dock…
wah wonk wah wonk wonk wonk…
it’s still preseason!
Don’t forget Joe Smith, Antawn Jamison, Gilbert Arenas, and Eduardo Najera.
Nellie didn’t have the first 3, but he DID play Najera as a rookie ALOT. At power forward. Because he’s a MAN. And he developed him into a terrific player. Because he LOVED Najera. As a ROOKIE. Look it up.
Thanks for reminding me.
I knew CC would appreciate the irony!
Clueless? You mean like hating on your team, calling playoffs AND no playoffs and making fun of paying fans, insinuating that they’re idiots for their support? Yet take away your self granted title of fake owner, and what are you left with? Oh yeah! A paying fan!!
The real Cohan must do existential standing flips every time you run your ATM card mate!
Felbot,
If this is our window, NOW, why trade our 2nd best scorer and heart and soul of the team, JR, for BW, who btw I’ve noticed you don’t think much of?
Second, you are really drinking the Nelson Kool-Aid. Are you perhaps related to coach? You are really buying a load of crap and trying to make is smell sweet.
The real story. The game didn’t matter? Why, because we assume Denver could never lose to Memphis? We give up on the playoffs two games from the end of the season and play the youngsters, while there is still a chance to be in the playoffs. We surrender. You don’t give up on the season as long as there is a chance left.
How can you even come on here and try to get us to swallow that, just because you obviously have?
CC! Me! I’m CC! I win! Bow down to me! I win AGAIN!
You playing a video game over there? Call of Duty 4 maybe…?
Mano wouldn’t know irony if it crapped in his hand.
Feltbot,
Maybe Nelson used to be a great developer of young talent. He’s lost that.
First, he didn’t develop Monta or AB. Montogmery was their coach as rookies and also their 2nd years.
Players he failed to develop:
POB #9 overall pick, 1st round. No development.
Marco #16 pick, 1st round. No development.
BW #8 pick 1st round. No development.
AZ Minimal development.
CJ No development.
Kosta No development.
AB. Underutilized, no low post development.
He develops young players? Not lately he doesn’t.
Felt, what are you talking about?!
The point is that the WARRIORS had all of them and lost them all over money (except for Smith).
PS, Belinelli is on fire!
Felbot,
Bellinelli, 13 minutes 17 points. Thank God the almighty Nelson didn’t play him all season. What a disaster that would have been.
Chris Cohan,
All the W’s have done in the past two years is dump salaries, and refuse to sign promising players to deals. There had better be a spending splurge this summer, otherwise the point of all this was to rob the best fans in the world and make the owner a boatload of extra cash.
They should have give AZ a low priced longer term deal for one over the summer.
The Warriors always lose their best players to save cap space. JR is just the latest. And they never seem to replace those good players with anyone good. The list is a mile long.
W mangement. Sign AB. Sign Monta. No matter What. Match any and all offers. And get us a good PF while you’re at it.
Bell on fire. 17 points in 13 minutes.
What does Nelson do? Sits him on the bench.
So much for player development or going with the hot hand.
Sit down Bellineli. What the hell are you doing? You’re making me look like a complete idiot for not playing you all season. Grab some pine.
Do coaches usually sit players that are on fire? Even rookies that are on fire? Why would he do that?
Thanks God BW is hurt. He could have made Nelson look like an idiot too.
While CC knows both crap and irony all too intimately, if not particularly consciously…
Mano, shush. The grownups are talking ball now.
Oracle– it’s silly. Mullin signs decent players to terrible contracts they couldn’t possibly live up to (though Richardson and Dunleavy sure seemed worth their money all years but last– look it up!).
And then we must dump and work with streaky hacks like Jackson and Harrington and a drama queen like Baron Davis is all we can bank faith on… losing bet!!!
Ellis and Biedrins are the future– animals!
boy, it’s so great to be right. warriors suck balls and play gimmick basketball designed to appeal to casual fans with lots of money, of which there are apparently a ton in the bay area. i have to admit, the marketing team went on a year and a half blitz for the W’s and were like mad geniuses for a bit there. easily the best thing the organization had going for them in the past two years, any reasonable observer knows the team was never going anywhere. but man they sure tricked those yuppies! WE BELIEVE!!!!!! if you’re die-hard, don’t worry, barring any major shakeups to management and staff, the W’s will be obsolete for the next 15 years, the yuppies will go back to San Francisco, and you’ll have the Oracle all for yourselves again.
Wow, Baron.
Way to really bring it against Seattle when the game means NOTHING.
Thanks for the memories.
44 three pointers in a home loss to the Sonics?!
This act is PLAYED OUT.
Durant and co. ready to take some names next year. Warriors had better find a new routine.
The whole idea of CC talking like an adult is, well, ironic.
Mano– try to find a basketball thought. When that fails, throw your keyboard out the window.
6 win increase, NO PLAYOFFS, terrible sub-.500 April, 16-14 since the All Star Break (MEDIOCRE, BARELY AN EASTERN CONFERENCE PLAYOFF TEAM!!!), Jack and Baron are total chucker slop who stopped playing defense 40 games ago.
This team just lost to Seattle to cap the season.
S-U-C-K
I’ll root for the babes but ditch the rent-a-cap-fixers now, I think.
Mullin, time to move back to New York. Take Nellie and Stephen with you. And Ray Ritter. And Bob Fitzgerald.
AB finally gets starter minutes. 40. 20 pts and 17 boards.
Thanks God genius Nelson kept his minutes low all season.
Tank season for the reconfigure.
Brilliant walk of the line.
Looks like success, maximum cash now and next year, crap out just in time to justify final phase of Operation Cap Fix with young talent in place and maneuver for draft picks.
Can’t beat the EliteNow, build to be EliteThen.
And if they would have won CC would have been the loudest voice pointing out the irrelevance of the game.
Perfect way to end this season!
Start learning how to look forward to Don and Baron coming back.
Mano - seriously, try to think.
Just once, have a thought that you don’t get from the bakc of a cereal box.
Adam,
Now that the politically-pregnant Sonics game is past, can we talk about how lame Baron and Jack were in April and how boring and predictable Nelson’s offense (no need to talk defense, obviously) is around the league now?
Can’t wait for the season recap and the sludge the Homer Brigade will be forced to toss your way or swallow if you’re honest.
45 THREES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Man it must suck trying to make fun of someone for “not thinking” but misspelling “back”. Irony, irony, irony! Typing a little too emotionally eh? Experiencing some difficulty in expressing just how right you are? Or our your own “thoughts” just too deep for you to handle?
Go dubs! Go ping pong balls!
We all know Baron isn’t giving up $17 mil and Don isn’t giving up $5 mil, but enjoy the soap opera for as much as it moves you.
Question for Tim K.
If as a coach you run a player into the ground by overplaying him all season, and then bench the same player because he is fatigued and playing poorly, what message are you really sending that player? Don’t get tired if I overplay you or I’ll bench you? That’s taking charge. Genius.
Chris Mullin saying teams with good PF’s are more consistent and that you have to trade for one or develop one.
You think he forgot to Nelson about that develop one option?
Mano is officially devoid of all relavinse.
——————————————–
Oracle,
Nelson is tossing out his decision date to be eerily in line with the players’ contractual season close/beginning. Had it with his BS. Just sue him to get out of the contract and was the hands.
The team is in ugly shape heading into Summer.
Let’s hope it’s not the same when October comes around.
wash
Nobody will dispute that CC is resident expert on irrelevance anyhow.
This team is in very malleable right now actually; we’ll find out how much Mullin has learned as a GM this offseason, most definitely. Still we have the chance to make the necessary changes; there are some interesting if expensive options (Jamison? Marion?), we’ll probably get the 14th pick (but the streets outside my house will run red with chicken blood regardless), that should get us something decent if not immediately helpful (Darrell Arthur?), or we can try to move up in the draft, with the trade exception and/or a trade (Harrington and Jax have very movable contracts).
Extremely interesting offseason, indeed. The soap opera part just adds to the drama queen dynamics, is all.
I think it’s enough to get CC swiping his card now!
(((((CHA-CHING!!)))))
45 threes? That’s a pretty damning statistic. Losing to Seattle at home to end the season is pretty bad too. Fans at the game deserved better.
In spite of the 48 wins, there is little doubt that the end of the season has shown that the team is in disarray. Really, Nelson has to be glad the season is over. I think he lost the handle. Started in San Antonio, the beginning of that Texas trip.
Remember when Nelson (and Adam and the Homers) were talking about thinking about the seaons as 4 quarters? Remember when we were asked to give until 20 games in to talk openly about fundamental points of play honestly?
Not only were we 3-6 in April in the heat of a playoff race we LOST LIKE DOGS, but
Final 20 games: 9-11
It ani’t how you start? Fine. It sure as hell ain’t how you middle, either.
And the Warriors middled their asses off.
Period.
Anyone not on my payroll can just say so.
We’ll see.
So much nonsense on this board. Here’s my best shot, then i’m out till the next roster move:
1) Nellie has played GOOD young rookies. His whole career. Lots and lots of them. Mysteriously, that didn’t include POB, BW and Bellinelli. You figure it out.
2) Anyone who doesn’t think Nellie has done more than anyone else to develop Ellis and Biedrins is simply more interested in scoring points than in thinking rationally. Let me ask you guys something: could Monta run the point under Montgomery? Did Montgomery run isos for him? Did Biedrins master the pick and roll under Montgomery? Did he learn how to stay on his feet and stop committing fouls under Montgomery? This “Nellie can’t develop young players” line is simply ridiculous. Grow up.
POB and BW DNP because POB and BW CNP. Face it. Own it. Experience what it feels like to grow.
3) Bellinelli has been lights out against Memphis and Seattle in throwaway games. He can score against D-league opponents when no one cares, no question. He cannot defend. ANYONE.
4) ME and AB will be back. Mullin has guaranteed it.
This is not an Arenas situation.
5) JRich was traded so that ME and AB could be signed this year. If we “took a step back” this year, as our intrepid blogger and so many others believe, it was so that we could take a giant leap forward next year. Which we will.
6) BD will be back. For 17 million plus 1 reasons. The one is that this is the perfect team and the perfect coach for him. And he knows it.
7) Nellie will be back. The title run starts NOW. Lets see what Nellie and Mullin come up with to fill the 4 spot and solidify the bench. We are THAT close.
#97 Mano-
“malleable” “jamison” “marion” “trade exception”—you have no clue what just went down or where even you want to go. the trade exception was to get us a player at reduced cost during the season and will vaporize on draft day—no one can have it or would want it now except for garbage. incrementalists and apologists should take note now—get off the valium so you can get ready for next year and feel something real.
96. Son of Ahmed, I somewhat agree with you but I think that I noticed a drop prior to San Antonio. They were struggling just prior to the double Laker games. Some how they pulled those off. (I’m giving them both games - forget the reffs.)
After those games they really took a dive.
PRIVATE POST to ORACLE - everyone else, skip this
I said skip it.
Don’t peek, darn it.
Dear Oracle,
Since I have sworn here never to answer anything that Feltbottom says, I thought I would write you a little private note to suggest that you do the same. Your time, actually anyone’s time, is much better spent with other things. He can’t understand what you are saying anyway. He just doesn’t get it.
This guy is one of the biggest fools out there. He did drink the cool aid a long time ago (actually probably something other than cool aid every night) and his knowledge of BBall is pathetic at best. He thinks Barnes is a great defensive player for god’s sake. What else do you need to know? His constant references to BW as “ragdoll” are rude and childish. He doesn’t get the meaning of fatigue. He reminds me of an old uncle who comes over to your house, drinks your vodka and sits there telling everyone how stupid they are- in a loud voice.
Its always the same stuff, over and over. Specious arguments, ridiculous comparisons and meaningless references and statistics, all the while lording it over everyone with his “expert” attitude. Subtlety eludes him. Save yourself a lot of grief and just say no to ignorance and blustering.
Your friend,
Tired
OK, now you can look on to the next post.
“Chris Cohan = Andrew Dice Clay
Both incredibly offensive with nothing to add to society.”
Amen, I’ve never seen someone so interested in screaming out “Look at me look at me look at me” Count the posts in this thread: he must have half of them. I wish someone somewhere in his life would give him the attention he desperately needs, so our suffering here could end.